[jr2]

think about the balance of the game! implementing this in the main campaing would make of people mad. maybe telling a dev about this for his/her mod?

Think about it this way.  In 20 years, would FS2 survive in its current form?  Even with upgraded graphics?  Now, if it was continually updated and upgraded, including the event lines in the missions, then the story will still sell.  Imagine the way would have created FS2 if they had the technology of 2027 available to them!!  The story would be the same, but they would be able to develop it more, to have more (seemingly) insignificant elements to give background.  Upgrades that affect mission balance can be compensated for.

Backwards compatibility is great, but I think at some point, (hopefully we will be able to stave it off for another 5 years or so) we're going to have to make a TC for FS1-ST-2, that allows the story to be retold, with better environment, at the expense of being the same as the "official" FS.  The official FS should, of course, be kept as another download or mission pack, perhaps with its own engine, but it should not be allowed to drag the new FS down with it, as it meets its eventual demise.  (Think: how many people play PC games from the 80s... it is a testament to their excellent design, that any are played.. but they still don't have a big following, because they haven't been updated.

What I'm suggesting is that at some point, we're going to have to take the FS-ST-FS2 missions, sit down with them, and think "what actually happened?", and create basically a flow chart of events.  Then, we'll have to think, "how can we add to this, and still keep the same mission story?", and proceed to add or refine elements of it.

While I'm on this topic, let take a shot at the dreaded "Battle of Endor"..  Can anyone actually tell me what it was all about?  Think.. remember.. use the Force oh, wait, wrong line.. but seriously, people complain about BOE missions.. and they shouldn't.  At least, not if it's a real Battle of Endor style mission.

The Battle of Endor was huge, it was vital to the defeat of the Empire (and thus, the survival of the Rebel Alliance), and it was seriously unbalanced.  The Imperial fleet versus the Rebel Alliance.  No-brainer.  The Rebels must have been suicidal to attempt it.  Oh, wait, that's right.. it was a diversion.  They were distracting their enemy from the real battle, fought on the Death Star's temporary shield generator's host planet.  The tipping point in that battle was fought by what, 10 people max?  They had to get past the defenses on the planet's surface, and destroy the shield generator... then, once their mission was accomplished, the four (?) people on the Millenium Falcon, plus a small (and therefore, easily overlooked) fighter escort were able to fly into the Death Star, and unbalance the reactor (by destroying some piece, I dunno what it was called... probably cooling, most reactors don't take too well to the absense of a cooling system, as the Russians found out at Cherynobl).

If that was FS2, Alpha 1 would have been the Millenium Falcon, or perhaps the flight lead for the fighter escort.  Mission is simple, yet deathly complex: keep a low profile and stay alive until your teammates exploit the critical weakness in your enemy's protection.  There you go... BOE missions aren't all that bad after all, are they?


OK, when is my execution scheduled for?   

[Dazza8082]

personally, i think your right, thats not to discredit what V did, they did a good job at the time, but even in the  last...what.... 10 years? things have moved on, fine, leave the original alone if you must, but at the very least a TC based on it would be very cool and if the IA is even slightly better then of old then your on to a winner! package it up an torrent it to the rest of the world, get PC gamer on board an your laughing!

[karajorma]

Let me deal with BOE. The objection is not to the Battle of Endor itself as pretty much everyone who uses the term thinks that it kicks arse. The term refers to people attempting to recreate the Battle of Endor when they don't have the FREDding skill to do so.

There are two main issue

1) The more ships you put into a mission the more complex it has to be become. Too often in BoE missions you blow up a capship faster than the FREDder involved expected and the rest of the fleet just sits there and ignores what happened because the mission is too complex to adjust itself sensibly.

2) The more ships you put into a mission the less of an effect the player has on the outcome of the battle. That's okay if the only objective is to survive but if you have a different mission goal it becomes progressively harder to balance the mission on the win/lose knife edge. The general result is that you end up with missions that are too hard or two easy.

The problem is not that BoE missions are bad. It's that most BoE missions are bad. The real version in the file is an example of how to do a good one. The player has a clear achievable objective which influences the mission very strongly but which is a challenge. However if you look more closely you'll see that the bit you refer to isn't actually Endorian at all. It's the fighter, a couple of wingmen and the Falcon against a few Tie fighters.

[jr2]

However if you look more closely you'll see that the bit you refer to isn't actually Endorian at all. It's the fighter, a couple of wingmen and the Falcon against a few Tie fighters.

Didn't I say that?

They had to get past the defenses on the planet's surface, and destroy the shield generator... then, once their mission was accomplished, the four (?) people on the Millenium Falcon, plus a small (and therefore, easily overlooked) fighter escort were able to fly into the Death Star, and unbalance the reactor
If that was FS2, Alpha 1 would have been the Millenium Falcon, or perhaps the flight lead for the fighter escort.  Mission is simple, yet deathly complex: keep a low profile and stay alive until your teammates exploit the critical weakness in your enemy's protection.   

EDIT: My point was, the BOE hinged on what a small group of craft / individuals did... ala Halo, FS1-ST-2  The rest of them were just to distract the enemy from the real danger that faced them.
EDIT2: And look nice when they blow up....

[karajorma]

I was in part agreeing with you but in part pointing out that I complain about BoE because very few missions are like that. Most BoE is simply slap down 20 capships and 50 fighters and give them all some orders. Sprinkle with messages and brief/debriefs and you're done.

Fact is that it's a lot more complex than that.

[jr2]

...to which I would heartily agree.    I just think the term "Battle of Endor" is a bit of a misnomer.  The real "Battle of Endor" (in the movie) seems more like actual missions in FS1-ST-2.  k, so we pretty much agree on that...

[takashi]

you get hints of something going on thats much bigger than alpha one in freespace.

debrief of the first mission:

"...deploying ground troops to secure the area...." (parts removed to avoid major spoilers)

and when you destroy the sathanas, sure, the collussus has the firepower, but that bomber wing is doing the real killing. taking out its best defenses, leaving it the equivilent of a fenris with good armor.
alpha one is not the hero of freespace, the entire GTVA is!they have ground troops, atmospheric fighters, AND spae fightes. you think the NTF would fly into an empty void and say "this is our space!"? no. the shivans prefer to attack in space, but humans dont. shivans board ships, blow up ships, but no one else does just that. play the whole darn freespace campaing, and tell me im lying.

to put it simple: ALPHA ONE (you) WAS INSIGNIFICANT IN FREESPACE 2 COMPARED TO THE ENTIRE GTVA.

same in most games. where was the cornerian army in starfox? out fighting more bogeys than a furry talking person could dream of.

[Cobra]

Shivans don't board ships. They blow them up in the most horrible fashion.

There has never been a mention of "atmospheric" fighters in the GTVA.

Humans don't have the weapons of mass destruction the Shivans do (or did), so they can't attack planets from space. They have to use more "conventional" means.

And Alpha 1 pwns all, he is he sole reason why the GTVA was able to defeat the second Shivan Incursion. Well, for me anyways, I never told my wingmen to do jack squat half the time.

[takashi]

look at the CANON cover art. perseus's flying around in an atmosphere. and where would you be if the rest of the GTVA wasnt there? staring at a game over screen. and note the mission "return to base...uh...babel", where the shivans board the i***i. (censored for spoilers)

[Cobra]

Stop censoring **** we already know, and making a half-assed attempt at it.

That's not the upper atmosphere. If it WAS an upper atmosphere, the planet would be much closer.

[jr2]

The Terrans would most definitely have atmospheric fighters, (we have them now, don't we?)... maybe not under GTVA Command, but they would have them.  In the briefing on the destruction of Vasuda, you can see a Vasudan craft fleeing the Lucy's anti-planetary beam, IIRC.

[Trivial Psychic]

This thread got off topic quite fast.

[jr2]

My fault; can one of the moderators take my post, put it in a new thread, and post a linky?  Please? 

[Flaser]

Shivans don't board ships. They blow them up in the most horrible fashion.

There has never been a mention of "atmospheric" fighters in the GTVA.

Humans don't have the weapons of mass destruction the Shivans do (or did), so they can't attack planets from space. They have to use more "conventional" means.

And Alpha 1 pwns all, he is he sole reason why the GTVA was able to defeat the second Shivan Incursion. Well, for me anyways, I never told my wingmen to do jack squat half the time.

What would you call the Harbringer then?
It was designed as a planetary bombardment device.

[Cobra]

Probably. Just let me answer this.

The Terrans would most definitely have atmospheric fighters, (we have them now, don't we?)... maybe not under GTVA Command, but they would have them.  In the briefing on the destruction of Vasuda, you can see a Vasudan craft fleeing the Lucy's anti-planetary beam, IIRC.

What I'm saying is that GTVA (space) fighters are capable of traveling in atmospheric conditions. The craft in the cbanim was a Seth, with some Satis and Ma'at freighters in the background.

[takashi]

why else would the the perseus have wings, an vasudan fighters the shape of an airplane wing (for lift)? that stuff serves no purpose for a space fighter.

[Cobra]

The Valkyrie had wings. The Ulysses has wings (bat wings ). The Myrmidon has short stubby wings. The Serapis has wings. The list goes on. End of discussion, we should get back on topic.

[Flipside]

That's probably just a human thing, mankind has been so used to putting wings on things that fly that it gets hard to break the habit. There's also the fact that you need to put the weapon racks somewhere.

[takashi]

back to the topic of why we dont need better AI.

[jr2]

...why we do!