Author Topic: AI and fighter speed  (Read 5237 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AI and fighter speed
Playing BTRL, I got curious about the speed of fighters in Freespace2.  So I jacked up the perseus max speed to 475 m/s (500 m/s with afterburners), which is closer to real-world fighter jet speeds.  I noticed two things immediately:  1. Trying to hit a similarly-enhanced enemy fighter at those speeds - even with proportionally jacked up lasers - is ludicrously tedious.  2.  The game's AI seemed to crap out, perhaps unable to handle the speed.  Neither my 7 wingmen nor my 8 similarly-enhanced opponents ever landed a hit on each other, even set on "General" AI.  They ended up shooting about a mile behind each other every time, while I did all the killing myself.

I'm just curious if anyone else had ever noticed this, and if there is some sort of functional speed cap for fighters, above which the AI has difficulty maintaining the mechanics of dogfights.

EDIT: The issue seemed to be with the $FOF flag in the weapons table.  Once I removed it (it was set to a measly 0.1), the AI pilots did much better in shooting each other down at speeds of 400+.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 07:22:29 pm by killface »

 

Offline Vretsu

  • 27
Re: AI and fighter speed
Nice. Newtonian physics could be implemented in that fashion...almost...well, sans actual newtonian physics calculations. You know what I'm saying. It would go something like this...

*fly at Shivans at 10,000 miles/s*

YAAAHH!!

*fire a couple shots, shoot past the Shivans, go a few miles, turn around*

YAAAHH!!

*shoot past Shivans, fly 500 miles off, turn around for another pass*

YAAAAHHH YOU BASTARDS!!

*fires a couple rounds, overshoots by 500 miles, turns around for another pass*

 
Re: AI and fighter speed

 :lol:  Yeah, that'd be a great time.  I do love messing with the FS2 fighter capabilities, but there's a definitely a point of diminishing returns (AKA, the moment when I start thinking, "You know, Top Gun was complete B.S.").

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: AI and fighter speed
Did you adjust the weapons speed?  Some of them would need a bump... cannon fire IIRC can reach ~Mach 3, missiles ~Mach 2 - 6.  ;7

 
Re: AI and fighter speed

Yeah, I bumped up the laser speed to around 2500 m/s.  I had 5000 m/s on the Subach for a while, with a fire delay of 0.01 seconds...but that was beyond insane.  You could barely even SEE the lasers before they were out of range! 

I thought if I increased the weapons speed proportionally with the flight speed, everything would be ok.  But the problem is manuevering.  If a fighter going that fast jukes you, and you lose track of him for just a second...the next thing you know he's 3000 meters away and gaining distance fast.  Protecting a cap ship in this scenario is a nightmare.  And if it sounds like I'm squeezing every ounce of fun out of the gameplay...I know I am!  Just seeing what it's like to play at Earth-based speeds, that's all.

 

Offline takashi

  • Better than TrashMan
  • 29
Re: AI and fighter speed
now wheres your dreams of flying a myr, fanboys!?

*takes a bit of burrito*

HUH? HUH?

anyway, UT balanced BTRL tables to make hitting at high speeds possible. ask him. and edit firepoint normals to converge at a certain distance based on tables.

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: AI and fighter speed
Hmm, you know, most dogfighting occurs at about 400 mph, IIRC
Quote from: http://www.onlineconversion.com/speed_common.htm
400 mile/hour (mph) = 178.816 meter/second

 
Re: AI and fighter speed


I think you're right, but the maximum speed of a jet like the F-16 is well over 1200 miles an hour (>536 m/s, based on that converting site).  If I could have the fighters move that fast when going from place to place, and slow down just for the dogfighting...that would be an easy but banal fix.  Actually, they do slow down a tad, jockeying around each other at about 350-400.  That's still insanely quick movement and lots of swearing at the screen.  I guess I now know why dogfighting is a thing of the past...it's just so much easier with missiles, missiles, missiles!

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: AI and fighter speed
Nah, they tried that with the F-4... and they ended up having to retrofit a cannon to it for close-range dogfights.  Missiles just allow you a chance to begin the game early, and hope the other pilot can't counter / evade the missile.  At those speeds, the distance closes quick... and when you want to maneuver, you have to slow down.  Actually, maneuvering itself slows you down.  The optimal speed for dogfighting still is ~180 m/sec, because then you can turn faster.  BTW, what's the max speed of an F-14/15/16/18 without afterburners?  Ask yourself this: If your afterburner uses so much fuel that you run out in 20 minutes, how often will you use it?  What will you use it for?  You won't use it that often, except in short bursts, for added speed / assisting during maneuvers.  The F-22 is unique in that it has supercruise, which means that it can travel faster than the speed of sound (Mach 1.5) without using its afterburners, thus saving fuel.  (Max speed they will now confess to is IIRC Mach 2.4... give me a break ;7 )

So, the solution to your problem is to make the afterburners have enough fuel to run for about 10-20 minutes to make it playable, put 2-5 minutes, with 0 recharge rate, a max norm speed of
Quote from: http://www.onlineconversion.com/speed_common.htm
570 mile/hour (mph) = 254.812 8 meter/second
and an AB speed of
Quote from: http://www.onlineconversion.com/speed_common.htm
2.5 mach = 850.725 meter/second
... of course, the AI doesn't know how to handle that... but for multi, that would work.

 
Re: AI and fighter speed

Now that's an interesting concept...thinking of the afterburner as more of a long-distance cruise drive than anything else.  But yeah, no reason the AI wouldn't take advantage of that during combat.  I'll try it out when I get home just for ****s and giggles.  I don't suppose FRED2 has a "break-afterburner" function I haven't found yet  :p

But I stand by my statement that Top Gun is crap, if only because of Tom Cruise's presence.  He has destroyed his past...from the future!  Such is the time-traveling power of manic behavior...

 

Offline Wobble73

  • 210
  • Reality is for people with no imagination
    • Steam

Now that's an interesting concept...thinking of the afterburner as more of a long-distance cruise drive than anything else.  But yeah, no reason the AI wouldn't take advantage of that during combat.  I'll try it out when I get home just for ****s and giggles.  I don't suppose FRED2 has a "break-afterburner" function I haven't found yet  :p

But I stand by my statement that Top Gun is crap, if only because of Tom Cruise's presence.  He has destroyed his past...from the future!  Such is the time-traveling power of manic behavior...

Not only that....................Top Gun was so GAY! Honestly, I've known even a few gay friends to cringe at the volleyball scene!
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
Early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
 
Member of the Scooby Doo Fanclub. And we're not talking a cartoon dog here people!!

 You would be well adviced to question the wisdom of older forumites, we all have our preferences and perversions

  

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
I don't suppose FRED2 has a "break-afterburner" function I haven't found yet  :p

Nope. But I might add one in the near future.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Make sure that you can use in-flight refueling (ie, support ship) to get it back.  ;)

 
Ah the Volley ball scene.

'Hey Guys! Lets get these pesky tops off! YEAH!'

....

'Eh, not you Goose. No, not you. You have to be BUFF for that.'

Poor, poor Dr. Green.
Watch out for the Guns! They'll getcha!

 


Love, LOVE the handle, Rand.  It's probably been five years since I've seen a proper shoutout to Robert Jordan.

 
Meh, I set the Perseus' to 180 meters per second and it does it for me. Too bad the Basilisks are still too slow.

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
I don't suppose FRED2 has a "break-afterburner" function I haven't found yet  :p

Nope. But I might add one in the near future.

Wait a minute... what's wrong with a recharge rate of 0?  Then all you'd have to do is make the Support ship able to refuel it...

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Wanna explain to me how you set the recharge rate to zero in the middle of a mission? :p
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Meh, I set the Perseus' to 180 meters per second and it does it for me. Too bad the Basilisks are still too slow.

Well...


You must balance most tables if you want faster combats. Apparently, the release of WCS Prologue and BSG:BtRL Demo made the problem of FS2 physics a top priority.

We're currently working on such a conversion for Steadfast. We're increasing the speed of spacecraft and weapons...
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 


Yeah, that was the issue I was dealing with.  I did work out a pretty good ratio of fighter speed to weapon speed / rate of fire.  But jesus god, one good bank to the right or left and a fighter moving at 500 m/s leaves me choking on their afterburner dust.  Maybe that's more "realistic", or challenging.  Maybe it makes kills more rewarding.  Or maybe I just suck.  That's actually a good possibility, considering how I didn't start playing FS2 again until I found this site.  But I'm still looking for a way to tinker with the maneuverability aspects of the ships to make high-speed combat a little less...tedious?