Author Topic: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!  (Read 4616 times)

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Offline AlphaOne

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Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Oki the question is this:

Is blitzkrieg a tactic used or which could be succesfully used in FS !

I mean it is a tactic which was used in the Second Gulf War so I guess it should be a reasonable tactic in FS!

However one inherant flaw in the blitzkrieg tactic is the fact that the army usualy endes up way ahead of the main supply lines and reinforcements. Even so  believe that is should be a very sucesfull tactic against the shivans. Why simply because of one of the major requirements of the tactic concentrating as much firepower in one point in order to take the enemy by surprise and gain a powerfull foothold from where you can lauch aditional attacks on the enemy.


Basicly if the GTVA detects a shivan force consisting of some 3 destroyers and theyr escort cruisers and corvettes they should try and take out the main force consisting of the destroyers by concentrating at least 2 destroyers per one shivan destroyer. I mean I know shivan usualy have reinforcements near by but even so 6 destroyers and theyr escort cruisers and corvettes shoudl prove to be more then an overwhealming force for the shivans. And even if the shivans counterattack with one or 2 or even 3 destroyers it should prove to be a far smaller force then what is required to take out 2 war fleets .


I aait your opinions on this.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
What, you mean fast advancing panzer wedges supported by dive bombers and followed by mechanized infantry? :p In space? That's what blizkrieg originally means. In Gulf War v.1 it was adapted for achieving air superiority, bombing any AA locations, and then rolling the tanks into the area AFAIK. Kinda the same, but with less infantry compared to the blitzkrieg of Wehrmacht.

3D space battles are fundamentally different from 2D ground battles. First, there is no infantry exept for space marines who are responsible of fighting inside enemy installations and warships. Also, there are no defensive fortifications for nonexistent infantry. Holding critical points - like jump nodes - is very different than on ground battles.

I have no idea what FS2 univers ground battles would be like. Depends of terrain and circumstances, but I very much suspect that large scale ground battles would be pretty rare. I mean, the scale of planetary invasion would be so huge that it doesn't make any sense.


I guess the closest thing to blizkrieg in FS2 space battles would be deploying strike bombers / assault fighters and space superiority fighters to swiftly negate enemy presence, possible supported with a corvette or destroyer, depending on the scale of the mission, then establishing a stronger presence by bringing in more cap ships.

Which is kinda exactly what is often done in FS2... :rolleyes:
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
We don't know if such a strategy works. I mean, we can all disarm the main beam cannons of a Ravana, we can fire some Stilettos and make an Orion a sitting duck, but we know that these warships are supposed to be defended by escort fighters. An ideal Blitzkrieg mission will make FS2 crash, since too many ships(over 100)will be involved.

Unlike the original Blitzkrieg, there's no apparent frontline, so virtually you can raid a convoy or a battle group and be chased down by fighters jumped behind you. Great distances mean that there's a need of advanced sensor arrays. Many ships need a few minutes before they can recharge their jump drives, but their signals need more time to reach the sensor of their opponents. In fact, in FS2 there's a continous relying on scout wings since they can jump at a location, check immediately if there's something nearby, then inform Command. There can't be a Blitzkrieg...ships can escape easily. They don't sit and wait.

As for the ground battle thing, there already is a thread about this subject...

We don't know how FS ground battles are, but they must be pretty common... habitable planets may be full of installations, troops and supplies so the tactic "We have secured the system and only this planet is left. Surrender!" may not always work. Conquering a planet is an important objective to achieve during a war(except for a war with the Shivans) and it has inspired many missions by me. It's mentioned just one time in FS2(Mission 1 success debriefing) and is almost completely ignored in custom campaigns.

I think that the GTVA has developed beam cannons for ground units as well...FS2 era ground battles are completely different from FS1 era ones...

Shiv's creating many interesting effects and models for planet surface missions...we now need a Gravity option that works and we'll be fine!!!

 

Offline Dysko

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
As for the ground battle thing, there already is a thread about this subject...
But 6,5 pages over 7 of that thread were covered with a "Why the Hades is on Deneb" question :rolleyes:
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
It was expectable...in the Intro cutscene there are bodies of dead people someone connected to a ground battle against the Shivans...

 

Offline Vretsu

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
I don't believe a Shivan has ever set foot on an Allied world.

 

Offline Alikchi

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Since the main strategic assets in FreeSpace are jump nodes, a "Blitzkrieg" on node defences is possible. But because space is 3d, the tactical side of it is totally different, except for the fact that you're pushing everything you can as hard and fast as you can at one point.
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Well I wasnt exactly thinking of ground battles but rather space battles. This way you would concentrate on space based blitzkrieg. You would have the fighters swarming in from the jump node folowed closely behind by the cap shipscruisers and corvettes which should prove enough of a problem for the defenders thus leaving the main cap ships the destroyers safe enough to come through the node and takeone the cap ships and provide aaaf cover. And since most of the time its the cruisrs and smaller cap ships like the corvettes that get into firing range first you would esentialy elimenating a decent amount of enemy ships with realative few cap ship losses  and leaving the main force almost intact. On the other hand it could be the other way around and have the main enemy cap ships like the destroyers up front . Either way all of this depends on sheer speed and brutalyti of the attack. If it is fast enough and strong enough there is no defence force that can stand in your way.

Also that brings another issue to mind the surprise factor. This would imply a lot of stealth recon and moving of your troops in this case the main fleet.
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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Considering the Lucifer took about 10 minutes to reach Earth, it must be pretty easy to reinforce a group that is being overwhelmed. Blitzkreig depends on amassing all your forces against a weak point in the enemy's line, which is difficult to do when the enemy can reinforce his position in seconds, or minutes, maybe (in Surrender Belisarius, it takes some time for the Psamtik to arrive). I get the impression that FS2 combat is kind of like battleship combat in WWI/II: Battleships were the big guns of the fleet, but both sides were too afraid to commit them to battle for fear of loosing their precious big ships. FS2 combat is more like shadow-boxing, with one-on-one engagments here and there where one side capitalizes on the other's weakness (like in Surrender Belisarius) or massive FS2 Intro battle-of-Deneb style engagements where everyone jumps in at once. Either way, blitzkreig in FS isn't workable on a large scale. Unless you, say, cut off the enemy's communications to prevent him from getting reinforcements, or distract him adequately elsewhere for you to concentrate strength against one point in his line.

 

Offline Dysko

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
I guess an attack pattern like this should work:

Wave 1: Stealth fighters that report to the incoming fleet what is there in the battle zone.
Wave 2: Heavy fighters armed with Trebuchets to disarm beam weapons on enemy capships. Strike bombers to weaken enemy capships. Space superiority fighters to sweep enemy fighter cover.
Wave 3: Cruisers and corvettes jump in, along with heavy bombers, to put enemy capships out of their misery. Interceptors and space superiority fighters maintain space superiority in the area.
Wave 4: Destroyers and carriers jump in to clear the zone of any remaining hostiles.

EDIT: fixed a thing about wave 2.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 10:21:21 am by Darth DySkO »
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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Or,

Wave 1: Pool every Trebuchet in the fleet and pick off the enemy fighters at long range. Kill the enemy capship's engines. Then Maxim or Rockeye away every enemy turret. However, you aren't allowed to get an enemy destroyer's hull below 10% unless you use bombs (because of the "capship" flag in ships.tbl), so just kill the cruisers and corvettes and leave the 10% hull destroyers to rot.
Wave 2: Send Alpha 1 to watch and laugh as the enemy tows away their 10% hull carriers.

I love Freespace's long-range God weapons, the Rockeye, Maxim and Trebuchet... Unfortunately, there's no way to get the AI to use them "properly". FRED doesn't even let me use the keep-safe-distance SEXP.  :confused:

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
I guess an attack pattern like this should work:

Wave 1: Stealth fighters that report to the incoming fleet what is there in the battle zone.
Wave 2: Heavy fighters armed with Trebuchets to disarm beam weapons on enemy capships. Strike bombers to weaken enemy capships. Space superiority fighters to sweep enemy fighter cover.
Wave 3: Cruisers and corvettes jump in, along with heavy bombers, to put enemy capships out of their misery. Interceptors and space superiority fighters maintain space superiority in the area.
Wave 4: Destroyers and carriers jump in to clear the zone of any remaining hostiles.

EDIT: fixed a thing about wave 2.

Well, how about Wave 2 also having assault bombers to take out the Comm subsystems on the capships?  :D  The fighter / bomber comm systems are probably relatively short range.

@Mustang19: look up "good secondary time" or something like that...
EDIT: good-secondary-time
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Portal:FRED , Retail SEXPs section)

 
Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Blitzkrieg tactics are probably used. In regards to The concern about outpacing the supply lines, I would imagine that a destroyer has at least enough supplies to last a month or more without supplies. 

 

Offline Dysko

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Well, how about Wave 2 also having assault bombers to take out the Comm subsystems on the capships?  :D  The fighter / bomber comm systems are probably relatively short range.
Because IMO the capship would be trasnmitting reports of enemy fighters coming in since they jump out of subspace. If reinforcements are not sent, it means that the enemy may be reinforcing other position elsewhere in the system, in case of another attack.

BTW, here are possible way of reacting to an assault like the one in my previous post:
1) Some interceptors already in space ready to counter a bomber assault, plus other interceptors already in launch position, already armed, and already with pilot on in the launch bays (a sort of Alert 5).
2) Destroyers spread out. Many destroyers one near the other are an easy target.
3) It may contrast with 2), but escort corvettes and cruisers VERY close to the destroyer, so they can have more concentrated AA firepower.
4) Alpha 1 lurking nearby
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Offline jr2

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Ya, Bungie stole the whole MasterChief in cyro thing from :v:;)  Whenever trouble comes, just thaw him out!

 
Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
The good-secondary SEXPs aren't enough. What I want is something to keep AI ships out of range of turrets and use Rockeyes and Maxims to pick off the turrets. Most people think of Rockeye as a crap weapon in single-player, but really, you can do some cool things against the AI with it. I beat Love the Treason... by letting those Herc IIs follow me and lobbing Rockeyes at them every once and a while. The Rockeye's long range and instant lock makes them just about the only missile you can use in a "hit and run" way. They also happen to have more range (1700m) than any weapon other than the Ultra beam or long-range flak. So, if you can get the AI to use these properly, they can have a field day blasting turrets even without advanced weapons like the Maxim or Treb.

 
Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Blitz tactics would work, only on special occasions. what most people dont understand is that in the battle of france the germans only could field about 5 or so armoured divisions. these 5 divisions spiked through the ardennes, mainly causing havoc behind enemy lines. then the foot troops, in close pursuit, would come in, doing the brunt of the work (p.s. im not trying to disrespect Guderian and the panzers, im just making a point) and actually capturing paris. im a big wwII jock, so i know.

in FS2, the corvettes would be the first ones in, along with minor fighter cover, maybe a few light carriers. they would secure the enemy system side of the node, and break off into about 3 prongs, scattering and seperating the enemy fleet. the bulk of the fleet (destroyers, fighters, bombers, the GTVA council's personal Fuhrer pleasure yacht  :P ) would follow right behind, mopping up and completetely annhialating the enemy fleet. the 'panzers' (corvettes) would by them have secured all jump nodes out of the system, making is so the enemy would have to surrender or die fighting.
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
In terms that would work; it would require a Destroyer and the entire fighter compliment, at a minimum.

Wave 1: Pegasus fighters scout a jump node while there is a suspected enemy capship to come through the node
Wave 2: A good number of Ulysses (24) jump in within a minute of initial sightings of the enemy; they use high maneuverability and speed to gain superiority and start to disarm and disable the capship.
Wave 3: 16 Myrmidon jump in with one Helios torpedo, all start to divebomb the capship's engines, then they join with the Ulysses in disabling and disarming. After that, they leave the comm system and some radar dishes up-and-running so they can trap the enemy.
Wave 4: All fighters in the area return to base, a few Pegasus return to watch the trap

That way, you disable an enemy near a jump node, beaconing the enemy to rescue the "big guns". If they come through, the trap is sprung again and even more damage is incurred.


That's not quite blitzkrieg but its a good adaption of the tactic for space and in the FS universe. It incapacitates the enemy's morale and attempts to force a move to the trap.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
I think we're off road...

1) The Myrmidon isn't supposed to use Helios torpedoes, it may be just a table entry glitch(it should be able to use Cyclops too);
2) I don't think that in real FS2 concept battles the Trebuchet is that effective;
3) AAA beams should be deadly in a real battle. They could kill the pilot instantly, they could hit the spacecraft's fuel reserves, etc;
4) A faction wouldn't send corvettes so easily. They're important ships a faction can't afford to lose;

 
Re: Blitzkrieg tactics & FS battlegrounds...!
Wave 3: 16 Myrmidon jump in with one Helios torpedo

Well, if you're going to exploit that bug, just go ahead and ~K.  :p

Other than the unlikely assumption that the enemy would feed forces piecemeal into your trap, that seems like the best plan so far. As advanced as capship weapons seem in FS2, it's really the fighters and bombers that are best for doing damage. One Cyclops does 3,000 damage, just a little less than most corvette guns, and a wing of old Medusas firing double-linked Cyclops can do more damage than the largest beam. The way I see it, capships are just there to provide logistical support. When you hear how destroyers/SDs normally carry over a hundred fighter-bombers, you can tell that 100+ ships do a lot more damage than the destroyer itself! Bombers/Fighers FTW. (What does FTW mean, anyway?)

The one thing I don't like is plans that base themselves around special-issue weapons. The Trebuchet and Helios, in particular, are sometimes assumed to be standard loadout, but I think that they're in rather limited supply. There are only a few missions were the player can use Trebuchet, and mostly only on a very important mission (like Bearbaiting) or as part of an elite squadron (in Exodus, the player gets some Trebuchet as leader of an elite squadron, but even then he doesn't get enough to loadout all his wingmen w/Treb, and even then that was early in the Capella conflict with plenty of supply). I don't think it's sustainable to equip every strike force with 16 Helios. Not surprising. Helios does twice the damage of Cyclops and Trebuchet is the ultimate God weapon.