Author Topic: Speed of Light: Relative?  (Read 9744 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
wait how can it not transmit information? if we had two light year long columns of the (sodium or) what ever it was they used to make light move faster and at the end of each column was a mirror, if you shown a light into both of them and had a detector set up to read the return beam wouldn't one go off befor the other?
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Offline Topgun

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
what makes light move faster? like a meta-material or somthing? I am lost...

 
Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
I'll leave Herra to explain the details because:
1) He enjoys it.
& 2) He's better at it than I am.

However, the salient point is that phase velocity /= velocity of propagation or "group velocity."
"…ignorance, while it checks the enthusiasm of the sensible, in no way restrains the fools…"
-Stanislaw Lem

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
One more time: the greatest signal speed by which information can be transmitted is very close to c, if not c. For this reason, it is assumed that the greatest signal speed is the speed of light in vacuum. If, for some reason someone finds out a signal that goes faster than light in vacuum, the greatest signal speed will become that. But according to the current understanding, if this was to happen, the difference would be very small so it is quite safe to say the maximal achievable speed is c.

In a wave packet what represents an optical pulse (pulse is actually open to interpretation), there are gazillions of different propagating monochromatic waves included. Because each of these waves have always existed and will always exist (by definition of the monochromaticity), the waves add-up destructively in most space, but because we are talking about a pulse, there is also a single location in spacetime where the add-up is constructive, and a peak is formed exactly there.

As you move the observation aperture along the pulse peak, you will see that there are fluctuations propagating in the pulse, and the propagation speed of these fluctuations might exceed c. However, you are only observing the sum of the monochromatic waves at each moment of time. This is perfectly reasonable explanation for me, and according to my understanding it is also the officially correct one. But unfortunately I cannot write it any way better.

But Fourier Maths is great and the above is based on my interpretation on that, so don't skip your lectures there as you might never know where you meet it again (hint: in surprisingly many places)! And quite surprisingly, its justification is that it simply works (for a physicist at least). Then model the same thing with the particle model... and talk about X-rays with the index of refraction below you-know-what. Some wise guy once said that if lambda gets below UV, congratulations, you (are screwed and) have chosen exactly the wrong career  ;)

The quantum mechanical teleportation stuff is something beyond me and I cannot comment on those experiments where the two particles supposedly always turn to face each other or something.

By the way Doc, feel free to abrupt this if I'm saying something totally incorrect/incoherent so that I apply self-censoring on it before too many people see it. I usually think more of MTFs and spot sizes than wavepackets.

I digged up some old material regarding relativity, the whole problem in the beginning of 1900's was the aether which got some unphysical properties, as it must have been everywhere and extremely heavy and on the same time have no mass at all. Einstein found a problem by examining Maxwell's equations (I don't bother to repeat it here) and concluded that the speed of light must be c in free space in order to have any sense in anywhere. At that time he was unaware of the experiments conducted by Michelson and Morley, however nowadays the above mentioned experiment is mentioned first as it is an indisputable measurement result and makes sense as such.

So special relativity rests on two assumptions:
1. Speed of light in free space is a constant c.
2. All coordinate systems are equal.

And then all we need is a magnificant idea of mixing time and space together! Einstein himself wrote that the idea dawned to him when he was discussing about the difficulties in Electromagnetic theory with his friend Michele Besso. He only mentioned that that day was specially beautiful spring day for him, he never mentioned anything else about the origins of the idea.

The normal Galilean transformation equations (that you should use in normal life) between coordinate systems along the movement of one axis are:
x' = x-vt
t' = t

Now, mixing time and space together gives:
x' = A_1*x+B_1*t
t' = A_2*t+B_2*x

Here A1, B1, A2 and B2 are the unknown constants to be solved.

Now working with the two basic assumptions of special relativity using two coordinate systems moving along each other at speed v and taking notice that the speed of light should be c when viewed from another coordinate system, and noticing the invariance of light cone in any coordinate system, the transformation equations become:

x ' = (x - vt) / sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)
t' = (t - vx/c^2) / sqrt( 1 - v^2/c^2)

The details can be found in-depth Physics book and so I skip them :D These are called Lorentz transformation equations, and by using these the time dilatation and the length contraction can be derived in another way.

If anyone is interested, here is a nice site for visualisation of relativistic Optics:
http://www.anu.edu.au/physics/Searle/

Please explain yourself the disformations in the train when it is passing by you.

Mika
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 05:41:35 pm by Mika »
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
If anyone is interested, here is a nice site for visualisation of relativistic Optics:
http://www.anu.edu.au/physics/Searle/

http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Savage/RTR/index.html <-- Real Time Relativity

Get the proggy linked to there; it's cool!

Also, this site was linked to:

http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Savage/TEE/site/tee/home.html

Thx for the link(s), Mika! :)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 05:58:36 pm by jr2 »

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
Sssh, keep it quiet, otherwise they will put it in Freespace SCP.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
and what would be wrong with that?

muhahahaha!
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Offline jr2

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
Err, the ships in FS don't use FTL... they use sort of a wormhole, you are not actually going FTL, you are traveling through another dimension or somesuch.  See here:


  

Offline Nuke

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
just because freespace has wormholes does not mean that super real physics cant still be used :D
i am kidding of course this engine ouldnt handle it unless some coders have an odd and spontainious desire to add more realism.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Mika

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
Hmmm, I know what a worm hole is. Or that I suspect that I have an inkling about what it is. The comment was actually related to the sudden changes it the gameplay, which would definately make things a lot more interesting. The sad thing would be that the people who would play it in the internet might complain a lot of things they don't understand. But on the other hand, we would have some huge ships going on, say something like one lightsecond long ship might be a small cruiser. When you are flying at the speed of 0.3 c you might pass it in three seconds. Your seconds. Now that I thought about it, it is the cruiser that will measure that you'll pass it in three seconds.

To totally mess you up, find problems sets at:
http://cc.oulu.fi/~pmu/jsuht/kurssi07.html

Scroll at the bottom of the page and you can find problem sets from there in English. I always considered them quite humorous, Lightspeeding Ladas and Klingon cruisers with bad aim, galatic welcome is to shoot a deadly beam in front of the incoming spaceship etc etc.

Here is an actual question from a Special Relativity calculations from the University days. I first time saaw it in the department of Physics, University of Oulu (translation is mine):

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Han Solo decides to park his Millenium Falcon (length 30 m, speed 0.8 c) in the garage (length 20 m). Chewbacca is standing next to the door.

a) How long is the Millenium Falcon according to Chewbacca?

b) When Falcon is fully in hangar, Chewbacca closes the door. How long does it take that
Chewbacca realises for his terror that Millenium Falcon crashes to the backside of the hangar?

c) How long is the hangar according to Han Solo? How long is the Millenium Falcon accoding to his observations? [Here we suppose that Solo had misunderstood the Relativity and thought that the hangar only looks shorter.]

d) Is Falcon fully in the hangar when the frontal part of the ship hits the back of the hangar? The cockpit is located 10 m behind the nose of the Falcon.

e) After the crash, Falcon is at rest with respect to the hangar. Chewie says that the 30 m long Falcon was fully in the 20 m long hangar before he closed the door and before the Falcon crashed. How is this possible? According to Han, the crash happened before the door was closed, so the door should not be closed at all! So is the door open or not? Is the Falcon in the hangar or not?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A small problem for you to think about.

So you all can suppose where this would lead to with n00bs. Consider the following:

"I bloody well shot it before the beam was coming in!"

"How on earth can the mission last for several thousands of years when I was only flying like 5 minutes?!"

"Why everything is so bright in front of the space craft and I cannot see anything from the behind?"

"When the capital ship is accelerating at the jump node and I'm behind it, I only see it decreasing in size and turning more and more red. When I'm in front of it, it's actually turning blue before I die in the crash? Why is that?"

"Why is the capital ship looking twisted and stretched when I fly towards it?"

"Coming next, the Relative Murder Mysteries: who shot the sheriff and when? Stay tuned!"

Need I say more?

Mika
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 06:28:08 pm by Mika »
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
And also:

"But officer, I can swear that the light was green for me! My flight sensors can confirm that!" :lol:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 
Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
That can really be some cool stuff, though. Jumping your attack force in even before the enemy sees it depart, running into a laser blast that you didn't even see, the different mindset you have to have while flying your ship at the speed of light... it could work if people were willing to play a true space simulator and accept that extra level of complexity.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
And then adding accelerations in the game would result in the model that must use General Relativity. Good luck getting that working in real time... not that I would mind if someone could ever pull that one off. That would be one helluva interesting game. Because there is a time delay of where the enemy fighter is in every moment since the light reflected by enemy is travelling towards you, there would be some interesting problems to predict enemies movements also. And when trying to shoot it down, there would be a need to shoot where it doesn't apper to be going, ie. the projectiles and the fighter would be on a course where they would not hit. And then try to make the AI to predict the path. I can already imagine the outcry if that game were ever to materialize.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
well err....here is another one for you math phisicks whatecer geniouses is warping as in star trek warping posible cuz from what I have seen on a documentary some scientists are treyng to prove it can be done. They said that this way you could travel at the speed of light and faster much faster without all the time passing stuff and infinite mass etc.
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline Agent_Koopa

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
That can really be some cool stuff, though. Jumping your attack force in even before the enemy sees it depart, running into a laser blast that you didn't even see, the different mindset you have to have while flying your ship at the speed of light... it could work if people were willing to play a true space simulator and accept that extra level of complexity.

No, it would suck. It would be totally awesome, but it would also suck. NAFAL ships would arrive at their destinations at almost the speed of light, but systems are light-years apart, so sending an attack force would take years from your end. In-system combat, that's a different matter. The enemy would have at most a couple of minutes' warning, if they saw you warming up your NAFAL drive, and none if they didn't. Combat at relativistic speeds would be impossible for a human. Things, obviously, move way too fast for someone to keep up, not to mention interpret all the distorted images coming their way.
Interestingly enough, this signature is none of the following:
A witty remark on whatever sad state of affairs the world may or may not be in
A series of localized forum in-jokes
A clever and self-referential comment on the nature of signatures themselves.

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Offline Blaise Russel

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
well err....here is another one for you math phisicks whatecer geniouses is warping as in star trek warping posible cuz from what I have seen on a documentary some scientists are treyng to prove it can be done. They said that this way you could travel at the speed of light and faster much faster without all the time passing stuff and infinite mass etc.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

 

Offline Ace

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
Somehow I have  a picture of a Trek convention being sort of like the Roman senate in Mel Brook's History of the World Part I:
"**** CAUSALITY!"
Ace
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
trek conventions are just an excuse for grown men to raid their girlfriends closed to dress up like some gay looking alien and associate with people with the same mental illness.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
Considering that realistic Newtonian Physics model in a space simulator would be too difficult for most of the people i.e. "Why is my ship moving to a direction that I'm not facing?", a Freespace with a General Relativity engine might be far too much for anyone to understand.

So to continue to have fun:
Assuming a warp engine that will accelerate the spacecraft from 0 to 0.1c using a constant 9g acceleration would need about 4 days to achieve that speed - I calculated this with Newtonian stuff; can't be bothered with Relativistic stuff now that I have conveniently forgotten it. But bear in mind that 0.1 c is considered the limit of accuracy for Newtonian Physics. So it might be doable after all, if anyone doesn't find the thought of having to endure 9 g's for four days distrubing. And now, who would? But at that time, the spacecraft would have travelled some 5*10^12 meters.

Not that you could actually turn the ship in any time soon. The turn radius would  probably be best described with terms like "huge", "colossal" and "massive". Try and detect those asteroids at Relativistic speeds, suckers. Not that avoiding them would help also.

About warping, I'll believe it when I actually see it happen.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Speed of Light: Relative?
hey wait i never said i was a believer in warp as in star trek I just hope sometime in the future we can overcome these kind of barrier with ease. Also I never said it can be proved yet ! But instead i said there were some scientists tryng to prove it can be done. At least on paper. Bu I believe they also said it would reqquire a masive amount of energy much more then we could ever produce acording to some of they calculations. Damn why cant I remember theyr names. It was on a documentary I believ either on Discovery Science or Some other channel like that.
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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