[Liberator]

I just thought I'd say hi.  I see most folks are still here. 
I remember we used to have massive arguments about things but today I thought I'd bring you a thought that centers on what today is.

Today is the 63rd anniversary of the invasion of the Normandy coast of France in an effort to defeat the Nazi's in World War II.

The morning of the invasion, which had started at midnight French local time with the preliminary paratrooper drops, President Roosevelt went on the radio and informed the public of the effort that was currently underway.  He read the following prayer which has been repeated perhaps too infrequently since then.

This day is set aside for the rememberance of those who served in the cause of freedom, those who came home at the end of the war in 1945 and those who remain there to this day among the fields of gravestones.  Please take a moment to remember them and if you have family that served and are still with us, thank them for their sacrifice, for without them the world would be a much darker place.

Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: our sons, pride of our Nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day without rest - until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and good will among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters and brothers of brave men overseas -- whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the Nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a countenance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keenness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogancies. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil. Thy will be done, Almighty God. Amen.

Pres. FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, June 6, 1944

[Mefustae]

Operation Overlord was an incredible military operation, there can be no doubt about that, but I think you're making it out to be a little more glorious than it actually was. It was big, sure, but there were plenty of big military operations during that war.

[Prophet]

for without them the world would be a much darker place.

You don't know that. In fact it propably wouldn't be all that different. The Reich would have never been able to hold its conqured territories. Europe would have splintered back to smaller nations. Though Finland might be a bit bigger... Had the yanks stayed out of the war and left the soviets to deal with germany, maybe our east border would be at the urals.

[Flipside]

Holy Crud.... You're back!

Welcome back

[TrashMan]

Meh..not interested very much in celebrating that..

Frankly it all ends up the same either way, regardless who wins. No side, no matter how militaristic or tyranical stays like that for long. Assuming Hitler won, he would die in a few years or would be overthrown/assasinated...you can only keep people in a fevor for so long before they become dissillusioned.
Eitehr way, it would all melt to something similar as hte world is today..

[Mustang19]

The Russians would've beaten the Germans anyway. IMO the Eastern Front was the only front that really mattered.

If the western Allies never established a beachhead in France, though, the Russians may have taken over much more of Europe than they historically did. If the Allies were really convinced that D-Day was a failure, they'd just allocate more resources to Italy, taking Germany from the south through the mountains. Not likely to get very far.

[Liberator]

I don't appreciate you trying to speculate about what would have been, move it to your own thead for that.

My point in this thread was to ask you to stop and give thanks for the sacrifice whether you agree with it philosophically or not.

[vyper]

Same old Liberator.

Welcome back.

[Flipside]

Heh, my Grandfather was an Artillery spotter during the run into France, spent most of his time operating several miles ahead of the Allied lines with a radio on his back that was bigger and heavier than a modern backpack.

He told me a story once, he was hiding out in a Barn when he suddenly heard a sound behind him, it was a German soldier, remember, with this pack on his back there wasn't a hope in hell of him getting to his gun.

My Grandad and this soldier just stared at each other for a couple of seconds before the German soldier said, 'If Adolf wants it, he can do it.', and threw down his gun and surrendered.

That story always sticks with me, even though Grandads' dead, because I wouldn't be alive had that soldier acted differently.

[Polpolion]

Both of my Grandfathers were in WWII before my parents were born, so I guess I'm really lucky.

One of my Grandpas was in Anzio, and was almost killed by an artillery shell, but his field glasses had stopped most of the shrapnel. My other Grandpa was, IIRC, a support gunner (or whatever had a browning) and got a bronze star for saving this one convoy on the Redball express.

[Nuclear1]

One of my grandfathers was in WWII, but not necessarily on the Allied side.  Not necessarily on the Axis side either, but on one of those third sides you never hear about in the books.  He lived in Latvia (right between Germany and the USSR) and had to fight off not only the Soviets when they first moved in, but then the Nazis when they came, and then the Soviets again when they pushed the Nazis back.  He ended up in a POW camp in Germany, then in an Allied Dislocated Persons camp before he took a boat to the US.

My great uncle flew bombing missions over Deutschland as well, but I really don't know any exciting stories about that.

[Flipside]

One of my Grandpas was in Anzio, and was almost killed by an artillery shell, but his field glasses had stopped most of the shrapnel.

* Flipside is glad his Grandad was an Artillery spotter in France and not Anzio

[Wanderer]

I think we (Finns) should be thankful of the Allied efforts in the Normandy and Italy... without them (and the rush to get to Berlin) the Russians might actually have tried to restart their 'unstoppable' red army's advance after it had been several times stopped and soundly defeated in the Karelia (Tali-Ihantala, Vuosalmi, Ilomantsi) in 1944.

Had they continued and managed to press through (unlike earlier) my grandfathers probably wouldn't have survived..

[Janos]

I think we (Finns) should be thankful of the Allied efforts in the Normandy and Italy... without them (and the rush to get to Berlin) the Russians might actually have tried to restart their 'unstoppable' red army's advance after it had been several times stopped and soundly defeated in the Karelia (Tali-Ihantala, Vuosalmi, Ilomantsi) in 1944.

Well, soundly defeated or not, our own army was pretty much in shambles after that silly episode. Who cares about 4108951km2 of uninhabitated swamp anyways. Yeah, props to allies.

Had they continued and managed to press through (unlike earlier) my grandfathers probably wouldn't have survived..

They broke through like 3 lines and were then stopped, though.

[Mika]

I would actually agree with Wanderer and Liberator, and thank Allies for doing whatever they did at the Southern front. The Allies actually saved Europe from Soviet onslaught, first by racing to Berlin and then supporting it up back to its feet, a very noble thing to do. I suppose most of us know that Stalin would have attacked Europe several years later had Hitler not done it first.

And then for my countrymen: discussing wars and relations to Allies in general would be worth of a new thread.

Mika

[vyper]

You know Churchill wanted to keep going and push Russia back? Interesting fact.

Carry on.

[WeatherOp]

Wowowowow, Lib is back.

[achtung]

My grandfather got a purple heart at Normandy, shot in the hip.  He never wants to talk about it, I guess it's obvious why.  =/

Oh, and my grandmother that made my daddy with my d-day grandpa was a nazi.  Teletype operator on a train in Nuremberg and managed to escape the firebombing by hiding in a prayer booth thing her key almost miraculously fit. 

My Great Aunt was almost cut up by a Mustang flown by a black man while carrying milk back to her house.

I don't feel like typing full stories right now.

[Unknown Target]

Welcome back Lib.

I have no personal connection to WWII really - my family was part of the Jewish refugees fleeing Lithuania, thanks to Stalin's Great Purges, I believe. So when we got here we weren't even citizens during WWII AFAIK.

[Polpolion]

Welcome back Lib.

I have no personal connection to WWII really - my family was part of the Jewish refugees fleeing Lithuania, thanks to Stalin's Great Purges, I believe. So when we got here we weren't even citizens during WWII AFAIK.

Lithuania, FTW!!!!!

So your Lithuanian, too? yay! My family had left in about 1904/5 to avoid the Russian draft (or so I've been told :/).