Author Topic: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change  (Read 11661 times)

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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I would advice to be careful before stepping in to conclusions. It is very difficult to say if human has caused the global warming effect. If I have understood it correctly, the average temperature of the other planets in this solar system have risen also, which would actually point towards a change in the space weather. Simply put, the measurement time is too short to jump into conclusions. And, the climate is not a "constant", but it is varying all the time.

And the most effective way to cut off the carbon dioxide emissions would be to cut down rainforests and slaughter a load of cows, and destroy several microbes from the ocean crust. These combined, according to my knowledge, contribute significantly more than human in the carbon dioxide emissions. However here I'm open to accurate knowledge if someone really has it. Needless to say, I think these measures would never gain popular support.

In the environmental questions, lots of politics is involved. I would advice people to actually calculate the energy spend in the process without the environmental option and the energy spend in the total chain of the environmental option. Sometimes it is an eye-opening experience.

The pollution, is another thing. I personally like clean surroundings and would like to have them as such later also. I have nothing against blocking the dangerous micro-particles away from the air, but there is need for research before one can be sure to block the correct particles away. Having lived two months in one particularly badly polluted city I wouldn't wish that for my worst enemy.

I seriously hope you are being sarcastic.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I cna tell you iot's darn hard to know what's hte truth anymore.... you got untold dozens of articles, each pushin their own viewpoint.

I do admit I'm far more on the side that belives global warming is caused by us...that doens't mean I'm one sides and that I shut myself to evidence from the "other side" (however intanglibe the concept of sides can be in this case...)

To tell the truth I'm loosing my faith in allmost everything I read on the net these days...no blogs, no sites made by god-knows-who (no matter how much scientific background thy guy claims to have or indeed does have)... just scinetific journals for me...I'd like to belive at least they have remained the beasion of unbiased truth (regarding scientific issues)
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I would advice to be careful before stepping in to conclusions. It is very difficult to say if human has caused the global warming effect. If I have understood it correctly, the average temperature of the other planets in this solar system have risen also, which would actually point towards a change in the space weather. Simply put, the measurement time is too short to jump into conclusions. And, the climate is not a "constant", but it is varying all the time.

And the most effective way to cut off the carbon dioxide emissions would be to cut down rainforests and slaughter a load of cows, and destroy several microbes from the ocean crust. These combined, according to my knowledge, contribute significantly more than human in the carbon dioxide emissions. However here I'm open to accurate knowledge if someone really has it. Needless to say, I think these measures would never gain popular support.

In the environmental questions, lots of politics is involved. I would advice people to actually calculate the energy spend in the process without the environmental option and the energy spend in the total chain of the environmental option. Sometimes it is an eye-opening experience.

The pollution, is another thing. I personally like clean surroundings and would like to have them as such later also. I have nothing against blocking the dangerous micro-particles away from the air, but there is need for research before one can be sure to block the correct particles away. Having lived two months in one particularly badly polluted city I wouldn't wish that for my worst enemy.

I seriously hope you are being sarcastic.

It is actually correct in a strange and convoluted way. in truth, most of our oxygen is produced by the algae that grows on most of the seas surface, the Rainforests put out a lot more Carbon Dioxide than Oxygen, however, the other environmental impacts of doing so would make it a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
The point is that cutting down rainforests would not decrease the carbon dioxide emissions. It would increase them exponentially!

Where do you think the carbon dioxide that's fixed on the rainforest will go? Outer space?
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
It will still be stored in the wood, no-one said anything about burning them once you'd cut them down, best bet would be to turn them all into books about the, now extinct, species of the rainforests ;) That's where the danger lies, not from the destruction of the Rainforests, but that the land is being cleared by burning, which IS re-releasing the CO2 into the atmosphere.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
Wood decomposing also releases carbon dioxide. Turning them to books would also release carbon dioxide by the various chemical processes and energy which on average also releases carbon dioxide.

Lose-lose situation. If you want to reduce the quantity of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere the best bet would be to retain carbon dioxide on the ground which requires doing something like planting trees... oh wait.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 05:19:35 pm by Ghostavo »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I would advice to be careful before stepping in to conclusions. It is very difficult to say if human has caused the global warming effect. If I have understood it correctly, the average temperature of the other planets in this solar system have risen also, which would actually point towards a change in the space weather.

I'm calling BS on that one unless you can provide some supporting data.
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Offline Mika

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
Trashman, consider these two questions:

Why is there a place called "Greenland" close to the North Pole?

Why there exists some, well, not exactly Mediterranean, but close to Mediterranean traces of plants in the grounds in this country? 700 km away from the Arctic Circle? [Well I'm only 200 km away from it].

As I said earlier, calculating it by yourself is the way to go.

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
Wood decomposing also releases carbon dioxide. Turning them to books would also release carbon dioxide by the various chemical processes and energy which on average also releases carbon dioxide.

Lose-lose situation. If you want to reduce the quantity of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere the best bet would be to retain carbon dioxide on the ground which requires doing something like planting trees... oh wait.

That's why I said it was a rather convoluted view of things. Actually, producing paper doesn't have to require the creation of CO2, but that's another matter.

This gets quoted quite frequently as a way of reducing our 'Carbon Footprint' on the planet, and frequently overlooks the fact that it isn't 'ours', I'm not arguing with the fact it's better to be planting trees than chopping them down, but, from a single point of view, it works, it's only when you add all the other considerations, such as the other environmental impacts, the cost of actually doing it, the emissions from the machines needed to do it, etc, that it start to look as ridiculous as it sounds :)

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I would advice to be careful before stepping in to conclusions. It is very difficult to say if human has caused the global warming effect. If I have understood it correctly, the average temperature of the other planets in this solar system have risen also, which would actually point towards a change in the space weather.

I'm calling BS on that one unless you can provide some supporting data.

Actually, I've heard of it too, although whether it is related to each other I am not sure.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html
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Offline Maxwell

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I would advice to be careful before stepping in to conclusions. It is very difficult to say if human has caused the global warming effect. ...

I seriously hope you are being sarcastic.


I think what he's pointing out is kind of important to understand in this situation.

Humpty Dumpty has broken but we don't fully understand why. All the kings horses and all the kings men are making big claims about their abilities to fix it, but the horrific truth is they don't know what their doing.  Everyone wants you to to throw money at them to fix your problems, but doing the wrong things could easily kill the patient.

A perfect example was the carbon credits idea:  Say I've got an industry pissing in my ocean and making the kids sick... but hey thats alright because the owner bought monopoly money from some guy in Russia who's Siberian back yard is spotlessly clean.
Another one is the energy independence push: So we stop using oil from Arabs and, for great environmentalism, start burning coal... which puts us back to square one carbon wise.   

The results of reacting to the wrongs things would be wasted money, wasted time, and no environmental savings to speak of.

 

Offline brozozo

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I was afraid I was going to sit through almost ten minutes of technical mumbo jumbo, but I was pleasantly surprised. He sums up exactly how I feel. I'm far from an expert on global warming, but all the stuff we pour out into the environment certainly can't be good for it.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I was afraid I was going to sit through almost ten minutes of technical mumbo jumbo, but I was pleasantly surprised. He sums up exactly how I feel. I'm far from an expert on global warming, but all the stuff we pour out into the environment certainly can't be good for it.
Exactly.

The point here isn't whether or it's happening and whether or not it's out fault. The point here is whether or not we should do something. As the bloke in the video stated, too many of you guys are trying to guess a row rather than pick a column. He summed it up pretty nicely: One of those boxes will be our future, it's simple logic. Based on that, I would think people would want to choose the lesser of two evils, rather than banking on a possible (that is, possible) global catasrophe to save money!

Just leave out all the research, conjecture and overly opinionated morons on both sides, and you're left with a choice between those two rows. Make a choice.

 

Offline IceFire

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I was afraid I was going to sit through almost ten minutes of technical mumbo jumbo, but I was pleasantly surprised. He sums up exactly how I feel. I'm far from an expert on global warming, but all the stuff we pour out into the environment certainly can't be good for it.
Exactly.

The point here isn't whether or it's happening and whether or not it's out fault. The point here is whether or not we should do something. As the bloke in the video stated, too many of you guys are trying to guess a row rather than pick a column. He summed it up pretty nicely: One of those boxes will be our future, it's simple logic. Based on that, I would think people would want to choose the lesser of two evils, rather than banking on a possible (that is, possible) global catasrophe to save money!

Just leave out all the research, conjecture and overly opinionated morons on both sides, and you're left with a choice between those two rows. Make a choice.
Bingo.  Unfortunately, even when this guy took 9 minutes to explain it (and quite clearly I must say) people still somehow don't seem to get it and are arguing about if its true or not.  I don't understand this disconnect.  It makes no sense.  No logical sense anyways.  Someone explain to me how the lesser of the two choices is somehow worse?
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Offline WeatherOp

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I was afraid I was going to sit through almost ten minutes of technical mumbo jumbo, but I was pleasantly surprised. He sums up exactly how I feel. I'm far from an expert on global warming, but all the stuff we pour out into the environment certainly can't be good for it.
Exactly.

The point here isn't whether or it's happening and whether or not it's out fault. The point here is whether or not we should do something. As the bloke in the video stated, too many of you guys are trying to guess a row rather than pick a column. He summed it up pretty nicely: One of those boxes will be our future, it's simple logic. Based on that, I would think people would want to choose the lesser of two evils, rather than banking on a possible (that is, possible) global catasrophe to save money!

Just leave out all the research, conjecture and overly opinionated morons on both sides, and you're left with a choice between those two rows. Make a choice.
Bingo.  Unfortunately, even when this guy took 9 minutes to explain it (and quite clearly I must say) people still somehow don't seem to get it and are arguing about if its true or not.  I don't understand this disconnect.  It makes no sense.  No logical sense anyways.  Someone explain to me how the lesser of the two choices is somehow worse?

See the thing is, he wasn't right. He used two variables, either catastrophic heat or a smiley face meaning ok. But, he forgot the third variable, the fact that we could start cooling down at any time. Studying climate is good, but jsut studying global warming will leave us in a truck full of mess when the natural climate changes do indeed happen.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
See the thing is, he wasn't right. He used two variables, either catastrophic heat or a smiley face meaning ok. But, he forgot the third variable, the fact that we could start cooling down at any time. Studying climate is good, but jsut studying global warming will leave us in a truck full of mess when the natural climate changes do indeed happen.
I got the impression he was talking about governments/people curtailing the amount of pollution, carbon dioxide, etc. that they themselves are putting out. How would doing that affect natural climate change?

 

Offline IceFire

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
It still doesn't matter in my mind.  Polluting the environment can't possibly be a good thing...what the climate does as a result is of little consequence and could even be viewed as a separate issue if we reduce our impact to the point where we make little difference either way.

 I can see it first hand and I can see what a little conservation effort can do to make a local environmental problem into a success story.  Climate change is a great motivator but I think thats for sensationalism...point being that we should be a little more at harmony with our planet so it doesn't bite us back in one way or another.  I could even be labeled as a tree huger which would be a typically derisive and belittling statement used on anyone who is in favour of protecting the environment.   

I'm all for having stuff (I really like cars) and our fantastic material world but with compromise. But I actually think we can have our cake and eat it too if we put our minds to it instead of arguing who is doing what and what is going on...just clean it up.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
See the thing is, he wasn't right. He used two variables, either catastrophic heat or a smiley face meaning ok. But, he forgot the third variable, the fact that we could start cooling down at any time. Studying climate is good, but jsut studying global warming will leave us in a truck full of mess when the natural climate changes do indeed happen.
I got the impression he was talking about governments/people curtailing the amount of pollution, carbon dioxide, etc. that they themselves are putting out. How would doing that affect natural climate change?

My point is he tried to narrow it down to two columns and seamed to press the point that there is only two things that can happen, we will burn up or it will be a big flop.

It still doesn't matter in my mind.  Polluting the environment can't possibly be a good thing...what the climate does as a result is of little consequence and could even be viewed as a separate issue if we reduce our impact to the point where we make little difference either way.

 I can see it first hand and I can see what a little conservation effort can do to make a local environmental problem into a success story.  Climate change is a great motivator but I think thats for sensationalism...point being that we should be a little more at harmony with our planet so it doesn't bite us back in one way or another.  I could even be labeled as a tree huger which would be a typically derisive and belittling statement used on anyone who is in favour of protecting the environment.   

I'm all for having stuff (I really like cars) and our fantastic material world but with compromise. But I actually think we can have our cake and eat it too if we put our minds to it instead of arguing who is doing what and what is going on...just clean it up.

I agree with that, I like the environment too, and I agree that we need to do out best to protect it. But trying to save the environment by screaming mass destruction and all is not the way to go. If that does backfire and if the people see they have been lead on, I really doubt they will care about anything natural then.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
What ever happened to 'better safe than sorry'?

My point is he tried to narrow it down to two columns and seamed to press the point that there is only two things that can happen, we will burn up or it will be a big flop.
But he addressed that. Introduce other factors, variables, whatever into the whole thing, and you'll come out the same. Go ahead, try it. It all essentially comes down to what he concluded; we've got ultimately two options: We act, or we don't act. The fact is that if we don't act and we're wrong, the penalty has the potential to be a lot worse than the potential penalty for acting when we didn't need to.

By not acting, we're by default picking the riskier option. Of course, the negative effects of Global Warming actually occurring could be far, far milder than his worst-case scenario, but the likelyhood still exists that it could be the catastrophe he outlines. Are you really willing to sit back and make that gamble a planet that doesn't belong to you, but to your future generations?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 01:34:35 am by Mefustae »

 

Offline blackhole

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Re: Compelling argument regarding Global Warming/Climate Change
I can't help but note that a HUGE (up to almost a third) of the oxygen in the atmosphere is produced by the gigantic forests of the Taiga, up by, you guessed it, Greenland, most of Canada, and lower portions of Russia. These vast evergreen forests are one of the major things producing oxygen, not just algae.

Carbon is not just stored in treetrunks either. Not only that, chopping down a rainforest or anything of the equivalent would induce an environmental catastrophe that would quickly take away the advantages of doing so.

No, what you need to be worried about is the ocean. The ocean stores INSANE amounts of carbon, and those rainforests and cows produce an amount thats able to be absorbed by it. But the MILLIONS of TONS of CRAP we are pumping out each day is quickly taking its toll. The entire reason that global warming could be so sudden is because of this - if it gets too bad, the oceans will stop absorbing it - and start emitting it. In vast quantities. Everywhere (starting, theoretically, near south America). Bye bye planet.

There is a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that climate change is induced by us. It becomes starkingly obvious when you look at how the naturally produced CO2 is always absorbed and processed, somewhere, somehow, and usually converted and reused, even if its absorbed by the ocean (which you can think of the earth's backup plan). Our stuff? Its overloading not just isolated ecosystems, but the entire freaking PLANET! Our emissions have destabilized what was once a delicate balance. The backup plan, the oceans, are almost depleted of storage space. The instant the oceans stop inhaling, and start exhaling, we're screwed.