Author Topic: Shivan sociology -- help!  (Read 15432 times)

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Offline Styxx

  • 211
    • Hard Light Productions
The Shivans are an elemental force. It's not a theory, it's said on the Freespace 1 cutscenes.


I don't know if anyone will pay attention to this, but here it goes anyway:

Everyone here knows the Freespace universe quite well. I'm surprised, then, that one possibility - one that I find extremely probable - wasn't brought up: the Shivans are an elemental force, but they were not born as one. What made the Shivans into the unstoppable force was understanding. They understood the very existance of the universe, it's real reason, and what must be done to protect it. And that's why they're the Great Destroyers, but also the Great Preservers.

The fact that Bosch could communicate with them also points towards that direction - Bosch was a genius (as hard as it is to believe), and perhaps he ultimately understood the Shivans. Perhaps he, by understanding the Great Destroyers, had a glimpse of understanding the universe itself, for when the Shivans unveiled what could be described as the ultimate mystery, they became a part of the very universe they belonged to.

Maybe someone came before the Shivans. Maybe someone will come after them. But the Great Destroyers and Great Preservers will always be there, to make sure the universe becomes what it's supposed to. And maybe, just maybe, the Shivans are not the enemy - they're just the tool and we couldn't realize the truth yet.

Makes sense?
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Styxx:
The Shivans are an elemental force. It's not a theory, it's said on the Freespace 1 cutscenes.


I don't know if anyone will pay attention to this, but here it goes anyway:

Everyone here knows the Freespace universe quite well. I'm surprised, then, that one possibility - one that I find extremely probable - wasn't brought up: the Shivans are an elemental force, but they were not born as one. What made the Shivans into the unstoppable force was understanding. They understood the very existance of the universe, it's real reason, and what must be done to protect it. And that's why they're the Great Destroyers, but also the Great Preservers.

The fact that Bosch could communicate with them also points towards that direction - Bosch was a genius (as hard as it is to believe), and perhaps he ultimately understood the Shivans. Perhaps he, by understanding the Great Destroyers, had a glimpse of understanding the universe itself, for when the Shivans unveiled what could be described as the ultimate mystery, they became a part of the very universe they belonged to.

Maybe someone came before the Shivans. Maybe someone will come after them. But the Great Destroyers and Great Preservers will always be there, to make sure the universe becomes what it's supposed to. And maybe, just maybe, the Shivans are not the enemy - they're just the tool and we couldn't realize the truth yet.

Makes sense?

I don't buy it.

I would think the term 'elemental force' means 'intrinsic to the structure of the universe, like gravity. If the Shivans are what you suggest, they're not elemental, they xenocidal fanatics with a huge load of arrogant belief in the superiority of their vision of the universe.

------------------
--Mik
http://www.404error.com
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline Pez

  • 26
 
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx:
The Shivans are an elemental force. It's not a theory, it's said on the Freespace 1 cutscenes.


I don't know if anyone will pay attention to this, but here it goes anyway:

Everyone here knows the Freespace universe quite well. I'm surprised, then, that one possibility - one that I find extremely probable - wasn't brought up: the Shivans are an elemental force, but they were not born as one. What made the Shivans into the unstoppable force was understanding. They understood the very existance of the universe, it's real reason, and what must be done to protect it. And that's why they're the Great Destroyers, but also the Great Preservers.

The fact that Bosch could communicate with them also points towards that direction - Bosch was a genius (as hard as it is to believe), and perhaps he ultimately understood the Shivans. Perhaps he, by understanding the Great Destroyers, had a glimpse of understanding the universe itself, for when the Shivans unveiled what could be described as the ultimate mystery, they became a part of the very universe they belonged to.

Maybe someone came before the Shivans. Maybe someone will come after them. But the Great Destroyers and Great Preservers will always be there, to make sure the universe becomes what it's supposed to. And maybe, just maybe, the Shivans are not the enemy - they're just the tool and we couldn't realize the truth yet.

Makes sense?

That is basically what I also think about the Shívans. I think the line from the last cutscene in FS1 pretty much sums up what the Shivans are: "The Shivans are the great destroyers, but they are also the great preservers."

Pez



[This message has been edited by Pez (edited 12-19-2001).]

 

Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Pez:
 That is basically what I also think about the Shívans. I think the line from the last cutscene in FS1 pretty much sums up what the Shivans are: "The Shivans are the great destroyers, but they are also the great preservers."

Pez

[This message has been edited by Pez (edited 12-19-2001).]

So do I.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Ace

  • Truth of Babel
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Very true.

Actually the entire underlying theme of "The Babel Effect" is how ambition fogs truth.

Certain elements are so die-hard on saving humanity that they fail to realise that their means will lead to a greater issue. (hrmm.. possible sequel?   )

------------------
Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 

Offline Setekh

  • Jar of Clay
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Has anyone here played Alpha Centauri? The Mind Worms are similar in role to the Shivans in that they are a tool/ more than a civilisation. But they were constructed, by the Progenitors. Maybe the Shivans were too? I can't remember...  
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Setekh:
Has anyone here played Alpha Centauri? The Mind Worms are similar in role to the Shivans in that they are a tool/ more than a civilisation. But they were constructed, by the Progenitors. Maybe the Shivans were too? I can't remember...  


well, just like the protoss and the zergs in starcraft were created by the Xel'naga (sp?), but I don't remember why they created them.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Setekh

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I think they were destined to become bred together to create the perfect being - I remember the Overmind droning on about how 'they were created pure of form, and we were created pure of essence' - and how Duran created the Hybrid, seeded it across worlds, and called it 'the completion of a cycle'. Man, I so want SC2.  
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS, now V3.0. Bringing Modders Together since January 2001.
THE HARD LIGHT ARRAY. Always makes you say wow.

 

Offline joek

  • Heh heh... not funny.
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Quote
Originally posted by Pez:
I think the line from the last cutscene in FS1 pretty much sums up what the Shivans are: "The Shivans are the great destroyers, but they are also the great preservers."

Yeah, but that was just the Ancients talking wasn't it? I mean to we take it as  's words about who the Shivans are, or as the Ancients words as to who they think the Shivans are?

Joe.

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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Setekh:
Has anyone here played Alpha Centauri? The Mind Worms are similar in role to the Shivans in that they are a tool/ more than a civilisation. But they were constructed, by the Progenitors. Maybe the Shivans were too? I can't remember...  

I never got the impression that the mindworms were created by the Progenitors. Maybe I should go back and replay the game (if I can get it to install again.   My CD seems to have a scratch in a critical place.)


------------------
--Mik
http://www.404error.com
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline Pez

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Quote
Originally posted by joek:
Yeah, but that was just the Ancients talking wasn't it? I mean to we take it as   's words about who the Shivans are, or as the Ancients words as to who they think the Shivans are?

Joe.


That's a human speaking in the last cutscene, possible yourself? But I agree it's not V's words. But it seems like [V] puts in little clues everynow and then in cutscenes and ingame. And I think that the line I wrote above is one such little clue.


 

Starwing

  • Guest
Starwing's theory about why the Shivans do what they do:

I can see the holes myself, but I still like it, somehow.

The Shivans where created by another race, let's call them Titans (fathers of the gods  ) They built them to guard their borders, which are, in space, subspace nodes.
Over time, the Titans developed, and with them also the Shivans. One sunny day, the Titans started to fear their own creations, because they had grown too strong. So they tried to wipe them out. But the Shivans didn't let the Titans wipe them out. They fought back and retreated into the nebula. This was the beginning of a war between Titans and Shivans. But over time the Titans grew more powerful than the Shivans because Shivans are warriors, they are not able to develope themselves. So they started to raid other races. For example: Ancients where experts of subspace physics, as they built the Knossos gates. Shivans came and wiped them out and got hold of the advanced subspace technology.
And they did another thing: playing god. They pop up with a almost unstoppable force and force other races to evolve to be able to stop this force, then the Shivans steal the technology the other race developed. Like: Titans have unbeatable shielded ships, so Shivans go after ancients with Lucy to force them to find a way how to kill Lucy. They didn't find it in time, so Shivans come back and attack Terrans. Lucy is killed, and while the fleet distracts the Terrans the Shivans take subspace tracking device to kill Titans.
They also present their technology to the Terrans: shields, beams, and so on. Years later they return to look if their seed has grown. It has, as Terrans now have beam weapons. They take whatever they could use (probably advanced Vasudan reactor cores?) and present another piece of tech, the supernova weapon.

------------------
You guys are still strange...

 

Offline Zeronet

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Noo, no other race created the Shivans! The Shivans were born from the flux of subspace!
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet:
Noo, no other race created the Shivans! The Shivans were born from the flux of subspace!


pff, neither they did. They are a common species that just followed an unusual  developement, IMHO.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Starwing:
The Shivans where created by another race, let's call them Titans (fathers of the gods   ) They built them to guard their borders, which are, in space, subspace nodes.

I kinda like that theory. To me it makes more sense to me than the manifestation of the universe theory that seems so popular.
 If the shivans really are the manifestation of the universe why fight them? We all know who is going to win that battle! Sooner or later the universe will win.
 On the other hand this theory does explain why only one lucifer was sent against us. The shivans had learned all they could about fighing shielded ships. Now they were trying to learn something else (how to fight a numerically superior enemy?)

That said I still prefer the theory that the shivans evolved somewhere and take down enemy races because it furthers their own goals (which we haven`t figured out yet)
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Raven2001

  • Machina Terra Reborn
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Styxx said what there was to say... yep  
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline joek

  • Heh heh... not funny.
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[rant]Does anyone else just wish that   would release the full story to us... kinda like what the Smashing Pumpkins did with "Machina II: The Friends and Enemies of Modern Music".   could just email us fans the story (call it FS3: The Friends and Enemies of Interplay :lol   and we'd all be happier.[/rant]

OK, my rant's over, back to topic:

Should we maybe start go categorize all these theories. Make it like a break down of theories. Example:


    • Shivans are environmental


      • Shivans maintain balance
      • Shivans try to evolve us into "perfect" species (and killing the errors: Ancients)
      • [/list=a]
      • Shivans were created


        • By other species to fight with Ancients
        • By other species to conquer the universe
        • [/list=a]
        • Shivans were born


          • In space and evolved and gave themselves limbs
          • On a terrestrial surface and evolved into space travelers


            • And were kicked out of their home by the Ancients
            • And fight big tough species to give little species the same chance they had
            • [/list=a]
            • In some subspace flux and fight now to protect their home
            • [/list=a]
              [/list=a]

            [edit] What UBB lists doen't nest? Fine, HTML lists [/edit]

            Something like that... so that we can begin to focus all of our ideas and even see where some new ones can come in.

            Joe.

            ------------------
               

            [This message has been edited by joek (edited 12-21-2001).]
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Offline BlackDove

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You guys all think too much. I'm not sure im following...

------------------
"We have a responsibility to the coming generations"
"What responsibility???"
"To keep track of the mistakes we made as a species."
"We need to remember to spread the word,and that's what keeps me alive."

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by BD:
You guys all think too much. I'm not sure im following...  


I think about this because it makes the game more meaningful. If you're just shooting down aliens because they're in front of you, you might as well play Space Invaders. On the other hand, if you let yourself go, if you 'step' into the game, it becomes something greater.

When you're out there in the inkyblack, jinkin and dodgin and ventilating Shivans because you're angry over what they did (we didn't do anything to them, why are they killing us?) or scared because of what they represent (they're inky black and bloody red and they crept out of the night and slaughtered our men), it means morep. It goes from being just a game to a full experience. A story is told and emotions are raised and the primal thrill of a victorious hunt comes to the fore.

Maybe I do think too much, but only so I can enjoy it that much more.

------------------
--Mik
http://www.404error.com
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 
...and I thought I was the only lunatic who did that  , glad to know I'm not alone  

[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 12-21-2001).]
I told you that It would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...

I'm working on something new... shhhhh, it's a seceret.