[BlueFlames]

Why the hell would shivans capture bosch only to kill him?  What sense is there in it?  Shivans have been shown in every instance (and espiecally that cargo ship cutscene in FS1) that if they are going to kill someone, they don't do it nicely.  They kill [the puny humans].  Taking bosch aboard one of their ships instead of just killing him outright, only to kill him once he is aboard, defies all canon shivan activity.

1)  It's like the difference between killing someone with a gun, killing someone with a knife, and killing someone with your bare hands:  tactile feedback.  Bosch had the nerve to try to speak to the shivans, while treading in their territory, and that couldn't very well be permitted.  Methinks the punishment is at least an intimate meeting with the disemboweling arm.  (Come on....  Each shivan has five limbs....  One of them has to be exclusively for disemboweling.  If I had a fifth limb with dexterous digits, I'd want it to be designed for disemboweling my lessers.)

2)  While you're talking precedents, it's also worth noting that the shivans never took prisoners.  They killed everyone they encountered face-to-face.  Why should Bosch be different?  He's more arrogant than the usual member of his lesser species?  I don't think that's going to do more than buy him some time as a curiousity piece before the horrible tortuous killing process begins.

[blackhole]

2)  While you're talking precedents, it's also worth noting that the shivans never took prisoners.  They killed everyone they encountered face-to-face.  Why should Bosch be different?  He's more arrogant than the usual member of his lesser species?  I don't think that's going to do more than buy him some time as a curiousity piece before the horrible tortuous killing process begins.

Thats the thing. Shivans never take prisoners. So if they did, they probably are going to use him for something. And a corpse is not very useful.

[S-99]

Yeah it's like you said, every physical encounter with a shivan ends up with a human getting killed. Same thing happened on the iceni even, but they took bosch and a number of his subordinates instead of just killing them aboard the iceni also which is what shivans would usually do...kill everything non-shivan in sight.

Least to say the shivans are interested in him, otherwise they would have ignored his attempts at communicating just like everyone else in fs history trying to communicate with shivans, and the shivans would have just blasted his ship to ****.

Not to mention you can't forget that mission where the rephaim was sending a couple of transmissions to all gtva ships in the area where you were searching for the iceni. It's pretty clear the shivans were trying to say something to the gtva. Regardless of whether the shivans made a mistake and thought all terrans had etak and could respond back. The shivans truly are interested in bosch, and that one time with shivans in the nebula searching for the iceni the shivans spoke before they were shooting. I don't think the shivans in fs2 are different than the ones in fs1, it's just that in fs2 something different happened to the shivans (which was possible communication) that made the shivans sure act quite different than normal near the end of the game. I mean bosch is like the only non-shivan to have been able to speak to a shivan. That's got to be a pretty different turn of events that the shivans are curious about, as opposed to destroying everything non-shivan in sight. Methinks shivans are a lot more than just the great destroyers and cleansers of the universe.

@Snail - That is just my take, and what Kara said supports it.

@S-99 - The supernova unpassability part might have been a bonus, but i don't think that it was the main reason.

The shivans were probably going for one of those two-fors.

[blackhole]

Maybe they're like the buggers from Ender's game! "Oops, we didn't mean to kill millions of people  "

Or not.

[BlueFlames]

The shivans are a symptom of a larger problem:  Noobism.

[blackhole]

Mmm, thats a valid point. We still have no idea what ment with that phrase.  But that is to suggest that if shivans are the symptom of a larger problem, then they wouldn't be the galaxy's "immune system" because they couldn't possibly have just been there forever, and that it would be possible to get rid of them by solving the problem that they are a symptom of.

But now i'm rambling. 

[S-99]

The shivans are the symptom of a bigger problem. This is true since it came from V, but there's nothing to build off of it. In fact to the community being told this means nothing. No one can do anything with it. It's stupid like that. And get's even dumber with the shivans being the "galaxy's immune system". Shivans are just another species like terrans and vasudans. Vasudans and terrans have a lot more in common with each other than say something that's completely alien in all respects compared to them which is shivans.

Shivans being the great destroyers wiping out other races that are capable of subspace travel. Get's really dumb and pretty pointless calling them the great destroyers calling out for the annihilation of your species just because your people have a couple of star systems and can go elsewhere in the universe because of subspace travel. Even if your species put less developed species in shackles and servitude, the shivans get deified as the great destroyers because there so ****ing alien that anything the species that's going to get annihilated considers standard will not work with the shivans. That's why standard communication can't work, body gestures, anything (especially in person diplomacy). Shivans are native to space, vasudans are terrans come from habitable planets. Terrans and vasudans come from gravity environments and use sound waves to communicate. Shivans live in zero-g and use quantum pulses and communicate (there's no sound in a vacuum). So this also equates shivans not having ears to hear sound, if you evolved in a vacuum the evolutionary process is not going to give you ears that hear sound. Shivans having their own version of ears might as well be compared to a miniature radio antennae that receives signals(being able to pick up other shivan quantum pulses) and a radio broadcasting antennae (a shivan being able to send it's own quantum pulses). The fact that shivans use quantum pulses to communicate in space makes perfect sense since there's no sound in space, and shivans will certainly not hear what any species has to say until bosch came around. Also the fact that shivans have tons of limbs in an odd configuration makes them pretty alien as well, the compound eyes could be compared to spiders i guess. So screaming at a shivan is as effective as a shivan sending quantum pulses to a human or vasudan (no one can hear each other).

Shivans aren't a force that the universe sprung on everybody who's space capable in the universe. The shivans are not a force of nature or immune system. This deifying comes from the ancients making the shivans seem god like in the first place, and then vasudans and terrans not sure if they should think of the shivans as god like or a force or nature.

Shivans are yet just another species in the fs universe. Sort of like how terrans and vasudans are species as well. But, just like how some species have some things in common (sort of like chimpanzees(terrans) and orangutangs(vasudans)), some species have nothing in common (sort of like how orangutangs(vasudans) and chimpanzees(terrans) don't have anything in common with say a spider (shivans)). The shivans can still be the symptom of a bigger problem, but not as a force of nature or being god-like(that's the gayest thing to hear for what the shivans could be), the shivans could be the symptom of a bigger problem say if the shivans are being bothered by something major and this in turns ends up making the shivans bother other species (just an example).

[blackhole]

The shivans are the symptom of a bigger problem. This is true since it came from V, but there's nothing to build off of it. In fact to the community being told this means nothing. No one can do anything with it. It's stupid like that. And get's even dumber with the shivans being the "galaxy's immune system". Shivans are just another species like terrans and vasudans. Vasudans and terrans have a lot more in common with each other than say something that's completely alien in all respects compared to them which is shivans.

Shivans being the great destroyers wiping out other races that are capable of subspace travel. Get's really dumb and pretty pointless calling them the great destroyers calling out for the annihilation of your species just because your people have a couple of star systems and can go elsewhere in the universe because of subspace travel. Even if your species put less developed species in shackles and servitude, the shivans get deified as the great destroyers because there so ****ing alien that anything the species that's going to get annihilated considers standard will not work with the shivans. That's why standard communication can't work, body gestures, anything (especially in person diplomacy). Shivans are native to space, vasudans are terrans come from habitable planets. Terrans and vasudans come from gravity environments and use sound waves to communicate. Shivans live in zero-g and use quantum pulses and communicate (there's no sound in a vacuum). So this also equates shivans not having ears to hear sound, if you evolved in a vacuum the evolutionary process is not going to give you ears that hear sound. Shivans having their own version of ears might as well be compared to a miniature radio antennae that receives signals(being able to pick up other shivan quantum pulses) and a radio broadcasting antennae (a shivan being able to send it's own quantum pulses). The fact that shivans use quantum pulses to communicate in space makes perfect sense since there's no sound in space, and shivans will certainly not hear what any species has to say until bosch came around. Also the fact that shivans have tons of limbs in an odd configuration makes them pretty alien as well, the compound eyes could be compared to spiders i guess. So screaming at a shivan is as effective as a shivan sending quantum pulses to a human or vasudan (no one can hear each other).

Shivans aren't a force that the universe sprung on everybody who's space capable in the universe. The shivans are not a force of nature or immune system. This deifying comes from the ancients making the shivans seem god like in the first place, and then vasudans and terrans not sure if they should think of the shivans as god like or a force or nature.

Shivans are yet just another species in the fs universe. Sort of like how terrans and vasudans are species as well. But, just like how some species have some things in common (sort of like chimpanzees(terrans) and orangutangs(vasudans)), some species have nothing in common (sort of like how orangutangs(vasudans) and chimpanzees(terrans) don't have anything in common with say a spider (shivans)). The shivans can still be the symptom of a bigger problem, but not as a force of nature or being god-like(that's the gayest thing to hear for what the shivans could be), the shivans could be the symptom of a bigger problem say if the shivans are being bothered by something major and this in turns ends up making the shivans bother other species (just an example).

Thats about the only sensible thing thats been said this entire damn thread.

[jr2]

I've always thought that what the Ancients said should be taken with a grain of salt... it's canon that they said it, but not canon that it's true.

[Stormkeeper]

If you think about it, from the Ancients' account, their first reaction to the Shivans was 'BANG'. Is it anywonder the Shivans nuked them?

[colecampbell666]

The ancients were so arrogant that the Shivans nuked them for a reason, revenge. That still doesn't explain the attempted nuking of the Terrans and Vasudans. Maybe unknown to the Terrans, the Vasudans provoked them?

[Stormkeeper]

Possibly, because the Vasudans could've lived under the Ancients, or co-existed with the Ancients, the Shivans think that the Vasudans were part of the Ancients too, and wanted to come back to nuke them, but since the Terrans were also in-system, they went after the Terrans too, because the Shivans thought the Vasudans and Terrans were allies, even though they weren't.

[karajorma]

Maybe unknown to the Terrans, the Vasudans provoked them?

I'd suggest reversing that. The way that the Ross 128 was covered up (and yet Operation Thresher is not) suggests that the GTA was up to something in that system. And we all know that GTI was up to all kinds of shady stuff immediately after the destruction of the Lucifer.

It's not hard to believe that it was the GTI who started off the war.

[CP5670]

I tend to think that the GTI opened Knossos portals in those systems and inadvertently let the Shivans in. The GTA tried to cover it up with the explanation that they came without using any nodes (which is sort of justified, as the T-V treaty might have fallen apart if the truth had ever come to light). If the Shivans could in fact make jumps without nodes, the GTVA wouldn't have put so much effort into sealing off Capella later on.

On an unrelated note, one issue I've wondered about concerning the Knossos portals is that the Gamma Draconis one had been shut down (and was reactivated by the Trinity), but the other two were presumably always active. Why was only the first one inactive like that?

[Snail]

On an unrelated note, one issue I've wondered about concerning the Knossos portals is that the Gamma Draconis one had been shut down (and was reactivated by the Trinity), but the other two were presumably always active. Why was only the first one inactive like that?

Did the Shivans come from GD in FS1?

[Dark Hunter]

Maybe the Ancients didn't have time to shut the others down as they retreated... or, the Shivans know how to turn them on. Wouldn't surprise me, seeing as they presumably know more about Subspace than even the Ancients.

Also, I thought the reason given for the Shivan's somewhat random appearance in Ross 128 and later in dead-end systems like Ikeya was not that they could use nodeless jumps, but that their subspace drives are considerably more sophisticated than the GTVA's, and they can traverse more unstable nodes that the GTVA can't.


@Snail: Not that we know of...

[CP5670]

Did the Shivans come from GD in FS1?

I doubt it. GD is never mentioned in FS1 and in fact isn't even marked as such on the FS1 nodemap.

Also, I thought the reason given for the Shivan's somewhat random appearance in Ross 128 and later in dead-end systems like Ikeya was not that they could use nodeless jumps, but that their subspace drives are considerably more sophisticated than the GTVA's, and they can traverse more unstable nodes that the GTVA can't.

In one of the FS2 command briefings, Petrarch says that they came in without using any nodes. Although he then sort of contradicts himself by saying that "they are as dependent on nodes as we are."

[Dark Hunter]

Did the Shivans come from GD in FS1?

I doubt it. GD is never mentioned in FS1 and in fact isn't even marked as such on the FS1 nodemap.

Then again, GD is on the side of the nodemap the Shivans invaded from, so there is a somewhat remote possibility that they entered through GD and Capella.

[Mustang19]

It's not hard to believe that it was the GTI who started off the war.

The GTI "may have known of the Shivans before Ross 128". Which means they did know of the Shivans. I don't think Admiral Po is spouting random nonsense there. Rather than take the Ancient's statements and so forth with a grain of salt, I think that those statements wouldn't be mentioned if they weren't meant to be true.

The Einstein was assigned to Ross 128, not Gamma Draconis. I think the GTI opened some kind of gateway in Ross 128, or at least led them there.

One more thing about the GTI: their association with the HoL. There are only two ST missions where you see the HoL: when you're protecting the Ratna and the secret "Eumenides Project", and in the Giordano mission where the HoL actually tries to capture a GTI science vessel. If you fail, your commander is "not authorized to discuss the consequences of this debacle, but Hammer of Light just named a cruiser after you".

Seems like there was something very important that the GTI was guarding and the HoL was trying to get a hold of. Same goes for the rogue Vasudan attack in the SOC loop mission.

[Dark Hunter]

My question would be:

WHY?


"Oh lookie! A super-advanced, highly developed alien race with an invincible superdestroyer! Let's invite them to come fight with us, especially considering our race is war-weary and at a stalemate against the Vasudans!"