[TrashMan]

Here's the kicker:

A Christian musn't deny God - it's practicly a sin.

A atheist can pretty much say whatever he wants - he can lie like crazy - no God, no afterlife, no punishment 

Morality enforced by fear is not morality.

Oh? It's not fear... it's more giving due respect to the big dude in the sky.

[KappaWing]

But the only reason most Christians do give respect is because they're afraid of going to hell, just as the only reason I respect cops who are being jerks is because I'm afraid of going to the slammer.

[TrashMan]

Well, thats theri problem then, isn't it?

Besides...nothing wrong with a little fear...it keeps us in our place.

[KappaWing]

Well, thats theri problem then, isn't it?

Besides...nothing wrong with a little fear...it keeps us in our place.

I find it preferable when people are kept in their place with morality that springs from within themselves, such as they will feel bad about themselves when they commit an act that is immoral relative to their own judgment. This way, if the institution imposing fear breaks down, order will still be upheld.

This is the way most seculars, atheists, etc. moralities function.

[TrashMan]

The more breaks to keeps us from doing something we'll und up regreating, the better.

I find it preferable when people are kept in their place with morality that springs from within themselves, such as they will feel bad about themselves when they commit an act that is immoral relative to their own judgment. This way, if the institution imposing fear breaks down, order will still be upheld.
This is the way most seculars, atheists, etc. moralities function.

  You say it's not like that by Monotheistic religions?

[KappaWing]

The more breaks to keeps us from doing something we'll und up regreating, the better.

I find it preferable when people are kept in their place with morality that springs from within themselves, such as they will feel bad about themselves when they commit an act that is immoral relative to their own judgment. This way, if the institution imposing fear breaks down, order will still be upheld.
This is the way most seculars, atheists, etc. moralities function.

  You say it's not like that by Monotheistic religions?

Yep.

First of all, its not morality by their own judgment, its morality from other peoples judgment who claim to be in contact with a supreme moral authority. This allows the followers to be easily manipulated.

Secondary, throughout the Bible, (and i'm guessing also with the Quran), people are punished somehow when they do bad things. Stoning, castration, imprisonment (deprivation of freedom), going to hell, etc. That seems to be the only thing keeping the followers in line at the time and fear keeps them in the pews today.

And then theres televangelism....

But wait, theres "Good News", if you join the church and contribute a total of $1000 in five easy monthly installments, our clergy will ensure you wont get sent to hell! never mind about that extramarital affair or eatinga all that seafood.....

....it all plays off fear.

[TrashMan]

You're assuming somehow that I'm brainwashed and have no thought of my own? Or should I say, morals of my own?

Have you cosidered the possibility that my morals and the ones preached by the Church could actually be in harmony (in 99% of cases at least)?

As far as fear goes, it's allways been there and allways will be there. We got lots to fear in this world and for a reason.
Fear can also be found in the most everyday process - brining up children. A child must have at least some fear of their parents...respect doesn't really come without a little bit of that. So I don't really see what's wrong with little fear in religion.
If God is our heavenly father, then you got to respect him, no?

And you make it sound like the belifs of seculars, atheists & budhists don't have anything to do with fear AT ALL?

[akenbosch]

budhisim has fear. fear of being reincarnated into a worse life (thats a lifetime of suffereing) if your previous life was full of immorality and general badness.

[BloodEagle]

First of all, its not morality by their own judgment, its morality from other peoples judgment who claim to be in contact with a supreme moral authority. This allows the followers to be easily manipulated.

Because people are mindless slaves.*

Secondary, throughout the Bible, (and i'm guessing also with the Quran), people are punished somehow when they do bad things. Stoning, castration, imprisonment (deprivation of freedom), going to hell, etc. That seems to be the only thing keeping the followers in line at the time and fear keeps them in the pews today.

*Check out The New Testament.

And then theres televangelism....

But wait, theres "Good News", if you join the church and contribute a total of $1000 in five easy monthly installments, our clergy will ensure you wont get sent to hell! never mind about that extramarital affair or eatinga all that seafood.....

....it all plays off fear.

Because pharmaceutical companies don't do this. The thing is, there are always going to be scam artists, and it's just plain wrong to stereotype people. Remember kids, stereotyping is the bastard child of bigotry.

-----

On a side note, this thread is being hijacked. 

[KappaWing]

Sad thing is I do have a basic mistrust of all pharmaceutical companies. Its way too easy to just placebo random meds. Yes, I think weird like that.

But yeah, total hijackage. Sorry. I must take my leave.

Whoosh!!!!

*vanishes*

EDIT: And I never mentioned Buddhists for that reason!!! 

[achtung]

The reference to God in the Pledge is a reference to the Christian God.

If you believe church and state should be separated, it should be removed.

[Galemp]

No one is forcing the Christian to deny God though. All that is being pointed out is that a phrase about God which should never have been in the pledge in the first place should be removed.

Correction: not only should it have never been in the pledge in the first place... it wasn't.

You know, I'm not even arguing that it should be removed. If it's traditional and it makes people happy then okay, I'll handle it gracefully. But we need to stop ADDING IT into MORE places it doesn't belong, and people need to stop abusing the phrase to back up their own points of view.

Reading back over the comments former Pres. Bush made, it strikes me that the attitude of he and his aides is as if American Atheists was a hate group, like the KKK or Stormfront. Now even white supremacists and neo-Nazis have their rights... but when you're holding Strom Thurmond in higher capacity than Crick & Watson because of their convictions and not their accomplishments there's something wrong.

[karajorma]

Correction: not only should it have never been in the pledge in the first place... it wasn't.

I know it wasn't there. That's why it shouldn't be there now in the first place.