[Hades]

They do dumba**.

[wdarkk]

I saw it on the History Channel during one of their 'WWII Days'.

But it's always WWII Day on the History Channel. They should call it the ****ing World War 2 Channel ffs. Honestly, would it kill them to do something other than WWII and Ancient Rome?

Well, even with the jet engine, it'd be pretty drat hard for them to overcome the production gap: http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm shows that the IJN was gonna get owned pretty hard by sheer weight of planes. Additionally, there were some problems with them not building new fighters virtually at all (they had an improved fighter designed to go up against US bombers, but made less than 500, which is tiny).

[Mefustae]

When quoting, it helps to look at the post in question.

[Admiral Nelson]

The history channel likes to exaggerate things for a better story.  The Japanese completed one -- count 'em -- one flying prototype of an Me-262 derivative before the war ended.  This aircraft, the Kikka, was intended as a kamikaze.  The Kikka, due to its poor engines, was not faster than Allied piston engined fighters and was certainly no war winning weapon. 

An improved Me-262 clone, the Ki-201 Karyu was under development.  No prototype was ever completed, and the aircraft could not be available until mid 1946 at the earliest.

[IceFire]

Fact is that jets wouldn't have saved Japan.  The problem is in resources and industry.  Even if Japan had significant fleets of jet fighters all of them would be grounded or nearly grounded by 1945 as they simply had no fuel left.  USN submarines had cut off their major supplies of oil, British and American troops had captured most of their other land based resources in China and Burma and the Japanese were basically backed into a corner.

Even assuming they had all the raw materials they needed the next big problem was pilots.  No experienced pilots left, save a few, as most squadrons were filled with newbie pilots with minimal training.  The war was essentially over...Japan could have probably fought for a while more but all it would have determined was the final death toll.

The side points are that...had the war lasted longer the Soviets would have captured more Japanese territory and given them a stronger foothold in Asia than actually occurred.

Oh and History Channel loves to exaggerate.  For instance, the popular Dogfights series was comparing the P-38 with the FW190 and gave the P-38 a check for superior firepower...simply not possible with any stretch of the imagination.  Its a good series and the tactics are good but sometimes the facts are either wrong, bonkers, or simplified to the point where it gets a bit stupid.

[wdarkk]

When quoting, it helps to look at the post in question.

Whoops 

[BloodEagle]

I can't seem to remember the name of the operation, which is making it difficult to find the information.

From what I can remember, they discovered at least 20 operational jets that were fueled and ready to go. It was probably more than that, but I can't be sure until I find the operation name.

The biggest thing about the jets was that it would allow them to attack B-29s, so dropping an atomic bomb would have been quite difficult. In that case, they could have had the time to develop jet bombers, which would lay waste to the U.S. fleets. Then again, what the the VT fuse, they might not have been able to do that.

Meh, this is going to bother me all day.

::EDITED DUE TO WRONG MODEL NUMBER::

[Admiral Nelson]

"B-52s"??? 

Read the article I linked to on the Kikka.  A couple of dozen were in various stages of construction, but that's all.  Germany produced 1400 Me-262s -- look what good it did them....

[Flipside]

The new title of this thread isn't perfect, either

How is that?

The true irony is that, considering our Intercontinental Ballistic Topic abilities, it probably will turn out to be about WW2 in general, it's already headed there

[BloodEagle]

::EDITED DUE TO WRONG MODEL NUMBER::
 
« Last Edit: 03 September 2007, 11:53:26 by BloodEagle »

"B-52s"??? 

36 seconds too late. 

Germany produced 1400 Me-262s -- look what good it did them....

Size over substance, the Me-262 was very dangerous in the hands of a trained pilot. Unfortunately (for Nazi Germany) there wasn't enough time left for them to be trained in its use.

Of course, the whole point I'm trying to make is that if the U.S. had waited a short time, the war would have lasted much longer than it did.

*grumbles about operation names and Google.*

[Admiral Nelson]

Perhaps, but the point really is, I think, that Japan did not possess jet aircraft in anything like the numbers required to make any difference, even if they had the pilots and fuel for them.  The only factor in determining the date of end of the war was the date on which the US was going to drop the A-bombs.  No cave of jets would have altered that reality in the slightest.

Here is something interesting, Japanese and back on-topic:

[Desert Tyrant]

IIRC the 'Super Yamato wasn't so much as a 'Super' ship as it was just mainly fixing a lot of the Yamato-class' design flaws.

Good find though.

[Admiral Nelson]

Sorta -- that posting is of a true 'supership,' a 100,000 ton BB with 8x20" guns, intended as a follow on to the super Yamatos.  These were similar to the Yamatos, but with 6x20" guns, and different armor and secondary weapons:

[Desert Tyrant]

Interesting, although i've always been curious how the US Montana-class BB would of turned out.  Alas, we never saw.

[Admiral Nelson]

She would have been a real stunner:

[IceFire]

Wow...never heard of that class.  Very impressive!

[Admiral Nelson]

Here is an unbuilt ship even fewer have heard of:



This 1912 US battlecruiser design was 1250 feet (380m) long!  The propulsion technology of 1912 was so limited that this was the only way to get a ship with 8x14" guns up to 30 knots. 56 boilers would have been required!

Visit Richard Pawling's page for some beautiful renders of this vessel.

[Desert Tyrant]

Wow...never heard of that class.  Very impressive!

No? 

The Montana class BB was actually supposed to be the Iowa's sucessor.  The Montana had three more 16inch guns, going up to 12.  The Montana class was supposed to be better in a scrape, as it was supposed to be more heavily armoured, at the cost of the speed that the Iowa had.  More well-rounded, as it were.

The Montana class was all ready to go into production, the materiel, the manpower were in place.... but WW2 ended, so the Montanas were never built.  Same with the two other Iowas that were already being built, the Illinois and the Kentucky were the unlucky Iowa's that were never finished.(The Kentuckey was 72% finished when they said '**** it' and cease her construction.)

If she had been completed, she would of been a beast. 

[IceFire]

Not as knowledgeable here about the battleships as I am about the aviation aspect of World War II.  I suppose I'll have to spend some time reading about naval vessels at some point

I've read a bit about the Bismarck/Tirpitz and the King George V class but thats about it.

[TrashMan]

The be-all, the end-all, the alpha and the omega, to this discussion: http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

The reason why it's the best: http://www.combinedfleet.com/okun_biz.htm This guy does ballistics for a living, and he genuinely enjoys it. If he speaks, you best be listen' fool.

Saw this site before...that guy knows some serious s***!