[Desert Tyrant]

AFAIK Hood was designated to go to extensive overhaul in 1941 exactly to improve the lack of armor.. And to get rid of the rather unsuccessful qualities of Fisher's battlecruisers - concept which proved doomed already in Jutland. Though battlecruisers were never ever meant (originally) to engage battleships in fleet action but were more of a reminder of the WW1 era cruiser (and commerce raiding) warfare.

Sorry to bring the topic back again.  I've been busy.

Hood actually having OMG terriblez armour is really a myth.  Hood in reality actually wasn't that much weaker in the armour department than KGV, or Bismarck.

By 1941 Hood can only be called a Battlecruiser in the loosest sense imaginable.  IMO against Bismarck Hood just got collosally unlucky against Bismarck. 

Now... as much as Yamato was the King Japanese battleship of WW2, I have to say... I like the Kongo-class.  Fast, and very respctably armed.  (Kongo-class was armed with 14/45 gun cannons mounted in double barred batteries.)  Post rebuilts in the 30's they became very nasty ships to go up against. (HIJNS Kirishima managed to moderately damage the American battleship USS South Dakota, before getting blasted and sunk by USS Washington).

The thing i'm wondering is how would they fare against HMS Renown or Hood. 

[BengalTiger]

"(Mushashi took 17 torpedos and 20 15,000 pound bombs. For comparison, the strongest bomb that the US had, short of the Nuke, was a 5,000 pound bunker buster IIRC. That is an incredible amount of firepower no matter how you slice it.)"

How could the Americans drop 20 15,000 pound bombs if they only had 5000 pounders?

"Yamato-classes armanant was nine 18.1 in. gun batteries, which wa sdivided into the same 3 gun battry arrangement as the Iowa-class. Her secondary armanant was 6.1 gun batteries, and had a smattering of 25 and 13mm gun batteries, which like the Iowa's 40 and 20mm were used for anti-aircraft duty."

Japanese ships didn't have a 'smattering' of AA guns:

Iowa:
9 x 16 in (406 mm) 50 cal. Mark 7 guns
20 x 5 in (127 mm) 38 cal. Mark 12 guns
80 x 40 mm 56 cal. anti-aircraft guns
49 x 20 mm 70 cal. anti-aircraft guns
Total: 149 AA and Dual Purpose (anti-air and anti-ship) guns

Yamato
9 x 46 cm (18.1 inch) (3 × 3)
12 × 15.5 cm (6.1 inch) (4 × 3)
12 × 12.7 cm (6 × 2)
24 × 25 mm AA (8 × 3)
4 × 13 mm AA (2 × 2)
Total: 40 AA and DP guns.

(In the FS universe, I'd compare the Yamato to an FS2 era Orion, and the Iowa to a Hecate with BGreens on the sides instead of the TerSlashes.)

Back to the Iowa vs Yamato topic, and reality:
If I was captain of the Iowa, I'd give the Yamato a night it would never forget- from sunset to sunrise a shower of 16 in shells from beyond the horizon. And I'd be untouchable- no radar for the Japs = no aiming at me.
If I was in charge of the Yamato, I'd have to attack during the day to see my enemy, and I'd need some luck to damage the Iowa without getting shot up myself, and even more luck to do it fast enough to fall back before the US Navy sends 500 airplanes to get me.
Summing up- I think the Iowa would either win untouched the night before the battle, or win with the help of a local aircraft carrier if SHTF.

[TrashMan]

does it even need aircraft to help her?

Yamato can't catch it anyway...it can just run away keeping it't distance and bombard it (in whihc case the Iowa has a far greater chance of scoring a hit at that range) or move outside it's gun range and stay there until ldark.

Either way Iowa wins.

[BengalTiger]

Either way Iowa wins.

Sums the topic up pretty nicely.

So a small change maybe:

Will the Battleship ever return?

[TrashMan]

Naval battleship? Maby with rail/coil guns, bu doubtfull...they work FAR better in space than in atmosphere.

Now in space...bloody likely.

[Desert Tyrant]

The problem with the Yamato is that it's rather likely to be shot to hell before it ever closes the range with Iowa.  At point-blank i'd give it to Yamato because of her gun superiority and armour.  Otherwise, the Iowa is better.

Now a prosepctive Montana vs. Yamato class 

How could the Americans drop 20 15,000 pound bombs if they only had 5000 pounders?

Mistaken information, maybe?  I could of sworn somewhere had Mushasho taking a a hell of a lot of bombs are torps before going down.

Japanese ships didn't have a 'smattering' of AA guns:

Only word I could think of at the time.

Iowa:
9 x 16 in (406 mm) 50 cal. Mark 7 guns
20 x 5 in (127 mm) 38 cal. Mark 12 guns
80 x 40 mm 56 cal. anti-aircraft guns
49 x 20 mm 70 cal. anti-aircraft guns
Total: 149 AA and Dual Purpose (anti-air and anti-ship) guns

Yamato
9 x 46 cm (18.1 inch) (3 × 3)
12 × 15.5 cm (6.1 inch) (4 × 3)
12 × 12.7 cm (6 × 2)
24 × 25 mm AA (8 × 3)
4 × 13 mm AA (2 × 2)
Total: 40 AA and DP guns.

Interesting.  Not only did Yamato have less AA weapons than Iowa(A given, as Iowa was designed to escort the Essex-class carriers), it's alos worth noting that the magazine-fed tripled 25mm AA guns were pieces of ****. 

Yamato for all her granduer, might and size, wasn't well protected.

Either way Iowa wins.

Sums the topic up pretty nicely.

So a small change maybe:

Will the Battleship ever return?

I think they might make a return if we ever actually get off the damn planet and go to space.  Chances are though they'll end something similar to the Omega-class Destroyers from B5, where it winds up being both a BB and a carrier.

[BengalTiger]

The problem with the Yamato is that it's rather likely to be shot to hell before it ever closes the range with Iowa.  At point-blank i'd give it to Yamato because of her gun superiority and armour.  Otherwise, the Iowa is better.

Now a prosepctive Montana vs. Yamato class 

Um....
Let me fix that:
Montana vs Super Yamato

And at short range both the Iowa and Yamato would probably be giving each other both entry and exit wounds (correct me if I'm wrong).

How could the Americans drop 20 15,000 pound bombs if they only had 5000 pounders?

Mistaken information, maybe?  I could of sworn somewhere had Mushasho taking a a hell of a lot of bombs are torps before going down.

OK, wikipedia says the Musashi took 17 500lb bombs, 20 torpedoes and 18 near misses before going down. And that is a hell of a lot of bombs and torps.

I think they might make a return if we ever actually get off the damn planet and go to space.  Chances are though they'll end something similar to the Omega-class Destroyers from B5, where it winds up being both a BB and a carrier.

Since WW 2 carriers don't have any offensive weapons, because it simply didn't work, but Freespace proves it's possible to have a big hangar with big guns, so who knows...

Naval battleship? Maby with rail/coil guns, bu doubtfull...they work FAR better in space than in atmosphere.

Now in space...bloody likely.

I think the BB's are coming back in a couple decades, with railguns.
From wikipedia:

The United States Naval Surface Warfare Center Dahlgren Division demonstrated an 8 megajoule rail gun firing 3.2 kilogram (slightly more than 7 pounds) projectiles in October 2006 as a prototype of a 64 megajoule weapon to be deployed aboard Navy warships. Such weapons are expected to be powerful enough to do a little more damage than a BGM-109 Tomahawk missile at a fraction of the projectile cost.

P.S. In space- isn't recoil going to be a problem?

[Admiral Nelson]

OK, wikipedia says the Musashi took 17 500lb bombs, 20 torpedoes and 18 near misses before going down. And that is a hell of a lot of bombs and torps.

The trouble with this statement is that it reflects the total number of weapons to strike Musashi, and not the total number required to sink it.  How many of these hits were just overkill? 

For example, the light cruiser Yahagi was hit by ~7 torpedoes and 12 bombs before it sank.  The first torpedo hit was enough to doom it, however.  Note below the torpedo hitting the already sinking hulk.

[TrashMan]

The trouble with this statement is that it reflects the total number of weapons to strike Musashi, and not the total number required to sink it.  How many of these hits were just overkill? 

For example, the light cruiser Yahagi was hit by ~7 torpedoes and 12 bombs before it sank.  The first torpedo hit was enough to doom it, however.  Note below the torpedo hitting the already sinking hulk.

Warships are like people....some die when they trip on the long, flat road...other fall from a 10-story building and walk away.
Better build warships have better chances f'course.


The Prince of Wales and Repulse are good example of hte ammount of firepower that's needed to sink those behemoths. A LOT.
You needed a lot of plains with a lot of bombs and a lot of torpedos... sice most missed or never reached the target.

It's was not uncommon for warships to be hit so badly that they had to be abandoned, but even then they refused to sink. the example is hte Yorktown... even after it burned down and hte crew was evacuated it was still afloat hours after that. US destroyers tried to tow it back to harbor, but when the japs came back they hit it with 3 torps (IIRC) and it still took ages for it to actually sink.

[Admiral Nelson]

PRINCE OF WALES is an excellent example of my point.  The very first torpedo hit was enough to inflict fatal damage.  The other hits may have caused more damage and casualties, but they were not needed to sink her.

[TrashMan]

Where do you get that idea from? The first torpedo wasn't nearly enough..

You're thinking the Repulse.. IT sunk after 3 torpedos..

Prince of Wales needed a lot more to go down.

[Desert Tyrant]

The thing about Repulse was that, unlike Renwon, she never got anti-torpedo blisteres  Repulse evanded torpedos for quite a while before she cacked it. 

I don't know Prince of Wales's defense was agains't torpedos.

[jr2]

OK, wikipedia says the Musashi took 17 500lb bombs, 20 torpedoes and 18 near misses before going down. And that is a hell of a lot of bombs and torps.

You should have learned this from the FS scoring system by now...

Now, class... a near miss is still, truly and wholly... what's that?  Good job!  You are correct.  A miss.    "Near" miss = a very disappointing miss, damage dealt = 0.  The only thing you might accomplish is scaring the #@!% out of whoever you are shooting at.   

[BengalTiger]

Upper left side of the picture - 16 inch shells in flight

You should have learned this from the FS scoring system by now...

Now, class... a near miss is still, truly and wholly... what's that?  Good job!  You are correct.  A miss.    "Near" miss = a very disappointing miss, damage dealt = 0.  The only thing you might accomplish is scaring the #@!% out of whoever you are shooting at.   

Now, teacher... You should have learned this from the FS scoring system by now:
bombs generate SHOCKWAVES, which are pretty unpleasant to the operators of the 25 mm guns.
The shrapnel and splinters are even more unpleasant, both to the crew on deck and the unarmored AA guns.

[Wanderer]

Also even it had missed the ship and detonated under the water... The resulting shockwave would still cause large damage just in similar manner like prematurely detonating depth charges did. For example some of the torpedoes used in WW2 were specifically designed not to impact to the targets hull.. They just dove under the ship and detonated under the keel causing even more severe damage than simple hul impact would have.

And sorry.. missed the post about Hood...

Sorry to bring the topic back again.  I've been busy.

Hood actually having OMG terriblez armour is really a myth.  Hood in reality actually wasn't that much weaker in the armour department than KGV, or Bismarck.

Not terrible armor as overall.. Just rather weak deck armor.

[TrashMan]

The thing about Repulse was that, unlike Renwon, she never got anti-torpedo blisteres  Repulse evanded torpedos for quite a while before she cacked it. 

I don't know Prince of Wales's defense was agains't torpedos.

quite good actually...It was a newer design..It took 9 torpeods and a qute a few bombs IIRC before going down.

It may not seem like much, but in those days bombers usually carried 1-2 bomb or 1 torpedo. Now consider that most ordinance never hit (ship evaded torpedos, bombs missed) and you'll see that you needed a lot of planes to sink a good battleship.

And let's not forget that the Prince of Wales is smaller than the Jap and USA counterparts and that no one had as many AA guns on their ships as the US and you can see just how difficult it woudl have been to sink a ship like Iowa.

They did actualyl try during those massed Kamikaze attacks, when hte Iowas was assugned to guard the Enterprise (or was it Essex??) Whatever..anyway it's cannons shredded jap bombers en masse and the Iowa sustained only minor damage.

[jr2]

Now, teacher... You should have learned this from the FS scoring system by now:
bombs generate SHOCKWAVES, which are pretty unpleasant to the operators of the 25 mm guns.
The shrapnel and splinters are even more unpleasant, both to the crew on deck and the unarmored AA guns.

The student is wiser than his teacher.

* jr2 runs away and hides in a corner.

[BengalTiger]

The student is wiser than his teacher.

What have I done...
What have I done!?

anyway it's cannons shredded jap bombers en masse and the Iowa sustained only minor damage.

Well with over 140 guns, from accurate 20 mm's through the famous 40 mm Bofors up to 5 inchers with proximity fuzed shells (in FreeSpace 2: Flak), what else can you expect?

BTW - Japanese planes were way less armoured than their US equivalents, another reason why they couldn't do $#!+, while the Americans sank the Yamato and 5 of it's escorts with losing 10 (yes, TEN) aircraft.

[TrashMan]

Technicly, ten aircraft is nothig to sneeze at, epseiclly given the full number of forces attacking the Yamato.

[Desert Tyrant]

An interesting story I heard about the Swordfidh bombers were that they were impossibly tough.  Accoreding to the story, a Swordfish took roughly two-hundred hits from Bismarck's AA guns, and still was able to fly back to HMS Ark Royal.  (Granted, said bomber was completely total, and the pilot was wounded, but the thing still got back.  That's impressive)