[Shade]

You're all right, this thread isn't going to go anywhere but bad.

The thread will only go bad if we make it so. So don't. Back on topic:

Undeserved, yes. Noone deserves attacks aimed at civilians. Unprovoked, though? Hardly. The United States as a country is definitely not innocent.

The thing is though, the attacks were not the act of a state that was feeling threatened, in which case the Pentagon part of the attacks might actually have been "legit" according to current US policy since it's a military target. And it would have been just as legit for the US to retaliate with overwhelming force afterwards. But rather, they were the act of terrorists, doing it not out of a need to defend themselves but simply out of a desire to cause as much harm as possible. And that is never justified, even though the US has indeed done some extremely shady things in its past that had provoked them (and in the case of these guys, trained and armed them).

As I see it, it comes down to the difference between military action and terrorism. Military action against military targets is called war, and it goes on between two or more countries. And the aim of military action is not to kill as many people as possible, but just to destroy the other party's ability to make war on you and/or gain some land/resources/advantage, which in some twisted kind of way makes it "ok". We'd prefer it never happens of course, but that's utopian given the state of the world today.

But terrorism is not aimed at military targets. It's not aimed at preventing danger to yourself, your country, your family. and it certainly does not gain you any benefits. Hell, it does the opposite on all those counts. It's just aimed at causing as much pain and grief as possible to the most vulnerable target available. And that is what makes it so very, very wrong, regardless of what reasons the perpetrators may be citing for their acts. Reasons, in this case, just don't matter, because the only true reasons are hatred and revenge - Neither of which are ever brought to bear on the actual objects of said hatred and revenge, but on whoever happens to be an easy target.

[karajorma]

Maybe not the 3000 people in particular, but you did just imply that the US deserved the attack itself because 'history states' it.

He implied that the US has been sticking its nose in to other countries and starting coups, financing revolutions and in some cases flat out trying to assassinate the leader of the country.

Why should they be surprised if someone tries to do it them?


While I disagree with both the methods and the motives (trying to bring down a democratically elected government) of the 9/11 attack the simple fact is that US has used different methods to achieve the same goal and probably has more blood on its hands as a result of these methods. So no one can claim it's completely innocent.

[Mefustae]

*Snip*

War has nothing to do with the military, it's just one guy smacking the other. When you get right down to it, that's all there is.

Who decides what a military is, anyway? Are you a solider when you wear a uniform? When you have a gun? Or are you a soldier when you merely want your side to win and the other side to lose?

You don't have to be defending yourself, you don't have to be organized, you play by the rules. All you need is an enemy, howsoever you perceive it, and you've got yourself a war. Terrorism is war, and it's a highly somewhat effective way of conducting war. It's a sad truth, but a truth nonetheless.

[karajorma]

It's not that effective. Unless it's backed up by larger military actions it takes decades before it even gets close to achieving its goals. In fact it tends to have the opposite effect of hardening the resolve of the people being terrorised into not giving in, even to the reasonable requests from the other side.

[Mefustae]

It's not that effective. Unless it's backed up by larger military actions it takes decades before it even gets close to achieving its goals.

Terrorism isn't an objective in and unto itself, it's only a means to an end. Using terrorism to conquer has proven quite effective if the 'Shock & Awe' doctrine is anything to go by, and using it to inspire fear and gain notoriety seems to have worked quite handily with Al Queda and 9/11. Regardless, you still make a good point.

[Inquisitor]

RIP Joseph and Nick. You are missed.

[Fearless Leader]

Off topic, but...

you know what.

Its my sisters birthday today....

[Inquisitor]

My friends wife's birthday is today. She lost her brother, Nick, in the towers.

Imagine how that feels.

[Kosh]

Hell of a birthday

[Fearless Leader]

My friends wife's birthday is today. She lost her brother, Nick, in the towers.

Imagine how that feels.

I dont have to imagine, Im a soldier. I louse a family member to violence almost every day.

And if some of you think the Iraq war is for no reason, thats fine, I dont. I wont accept the idea that my brothers are dieing for nothing.

[Flipside]

I'm sorry to hear of your friends' wife's loss Inq, especially on a day that should be cause for celebration.

People were killed that day who shouldn't have died, that's what it boils down to for me. I know there's far reaching 'scope' to the whole story, but that doesn't bring them back. I was in a tube train about a mile from one of the Tube bombs in London when it went off.

One thing that has occured to me over the years is that 'we' or 'you' apply to the living, the options for these people are over, their opinion gone, they can never say whether what 'we' or 'you' were doing was right or wrong in their opinion. For now I choose to mourn the deaths for what they are, someone's family.

Of course there's more, there are far more lives to mourn, regardless of where, when, how or why they died, but these deaths were symbolic to everyone in some way, and it is terrible that people died.

[Inquisitor]

Friend's wife.

[Flipside]

Sorry, fixed....

[Inquisitor]

No worries.

[Kosh]

My friends wife's birthday is today. She lost her brother, Nick, in the towers.

Imagine how that feels.

I dont have to imagine, Im a soldier. I louse a family member to violence almost every day.

And if some of you think the Iraq war is for no reason, thats fine, I dont. I wont accept the idea that my brothers are dieing for nothing.

Sometimes people die for nothing, it is not his their fault, but the fault of those who sent them there to begin with.

[DiabloRojo]

Sometimes people die for nothing, it is not his their fault, but the fault of those who sent them there to begin with.

NO!
It's the fault of the people that pull the trigger.
It's the fault of the people that create the IED.
It's the fault of the people that can't stop blaming someone else for their woes and move past ignorance and hate.

[Kosh]

Um, as I recall it was US who invaded THEM, a sovereign state. Truth hurts sometimes.

[karajorma]

It's the fault of BOTH. Never forget it.

The fact that US soldiers should be on Iraqi soil doesn't give the insurgents the right to kill them. Lets not forget that they'd have packed up and gone home a couple of years ago if the insurgents had just sat on their hands and done nothing. The insurgents want to fight for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with getting American troops out of Iraq.

[Mobius]

There always is something interesting to say, something that attracts the attention. Furthermore, remember that the attack on the WTC was intended as an attack against Christians. It's enough to make 9/11 a world event.

No it wasn't. It was an attack against americans.

So the Jihad had nothing to do with it?!? How can you claim it? The kamikaze pilots were martyrs, martyrs for the Jihad...

[TrashMan]

I prefer war over terrorism any day...

"Normal" war has at least SOME semblence of rules, or guidelnies... you got conventions and foreign ambassadors that look at your every action, so civilian casualties are avoided and frawned upon.
With terrorism there are no rules...there is no safe place or safe group...you're either with them or against them...no neutrality. They kill and destroy whatever they can in a mad attempt to gain recogition.