[TrashMan]

Yet you argued that if there was only one religion there would be less war. Then you say that religion does not play a large part in any on-going war and that they are fought for many differing reasons which have little to do with religion.

So if war and religion are only loosely linked how would everyone being a Christian have any effect on the number of wars?

1. Christians are peacefull. (and becoming more peacefull over tiem. apareent trend)
2. War and religion may be loosly tied, but there still is a tie. With one faith there is one less reason to go to war and one more reason not to go to war. It's harder for anyone to take advantage of the less educated, simpler folk on the grounds of faith.
3. I didn't say there would be a huge difference, now did I?

[Polpolion]

Is there really a link between WWI&II and religion? Sure, in WWII some people might have argued that it was the "right thing to do" for the allies to fight Germany. But what it really boils down to is that Germans were the aggressors, and they wanted more territory. Come to think of it, what exactly was the motive for Hitler's expansion? Never mind, Look at WWI. Nationalism and an assassination, then a domino effect with declarations of war. The US civil war: The south was pretty much dissatisfied at the way the slavery was being handled, one state ceded, then others, then the US asked for troops, then more ceded. The US revolution: People didn't want to be (semi)ruled by someone who viewed them as a tool to boost the state's funds. There might be a connection in WW2 and the US revolution, but in WW2 it was a flawed reason to go into war. Pardon my lack of knowledge of non-America involved wars. Elsewhere it is just a coincidence. Unless it's obvious it's a holy war, I doubt there is much correlation.

Oh, and another tally for Godwin.

[karajorma]

1. Christians are peacefull. (and becoming more peacefull over tiem. apareent trend)

Arguable. The large increase in peaceful Christianity is mostly linked to the large increase in secularism and a corresponding loss of power by the church. It's debatable how long that peacefulness would remain once Christians were the only ones left.

3. I didn't say there would be a huge difference, now did I?

Actually you did. You said that there were big wars being fought due to religion now and that they wouldn't be fought if the entire world was Christian. If you want to say that this was a mistake and you meant that there are wars being fought now which have a very small religious theme and that this theme wouldn't be there in a purely Christian world then I'll agree with you cause that's just common sense.

But even if you had a purely Christian world how would you keep it that way? How do you stop heresy? How do you stop schisms? Cause the only way to do that is to repress any other religions that start to spring up. Hardly most people's definition of the world being a better place.

[Hazaanko]

What it really boils down to is what your opinion of Christianity is, and if an individual is actually following it.
Take this for example.

"I am absolutely convinced that if everyone adhered to the true teachings of Christ, wars would simply not exist and the world would become a better place for every last person."

While that hypothetical might very well be true, you have to remember we don't live in a perfect world.  Even if something like that DID happen, there would be a 'falling away.'  It would start with diverging opinions about doctrine, then a separation of the church, and then everything goes downhill from there and we'd end up right where we are now.  Is the problem Christianity?  That is purely a matter of theology.  The point is... (hypothetically) that even though Christianity filled the world, someone along the line is going to decide they don't want to follow that anymore.  They lose the teachings that keep in harmony with the world, and things slowly plummet out of control.

Now, in this example, would Christianity be to blame?  Absolutely not.  People can make their own decisions and decide not to follow whatever.  You don't blame a religion for the acts of a person who don't choose to follow 'their religion.'  BUT DONT CALL THE GUY WHO DIDN'T FOLLOW THE RULES A CHRISTIAN.

[karajorma]

If one person is a catholic and one is a protestant, who is not a Christian?

[jr2]

Well, "Christian" means "little Christ"... in other words, a follower of Christ.  One can be Catholic and be a true follower of Christ.  One can also be a Catholic and not be a true follower of Christ.  The same with Protestants.  There are plenty of Catholics and Protestants who are not (and who are) true followers of Christ.  Want a proof of who is and who isn't?

John 8:31,32

31So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in Him, If you abide in My word [hold fast to My teachings and live in accordance with them], you are truly My disciples.

32And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.

John 13:34-35 "Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other."

Ah, here's another good one: (Luke 6)

27 “But to you who are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies! Do good to those who hate you. 28 Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. 30 Give to anyone who asks; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. 31 Do to others as you would like them to do to you.

 32 “If you love only those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them! 33 And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you get credit? Even sinners do that much! 34 And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, why should you get credit? Even sinners will lend to other sinners for a full return.

 35 “Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked. 36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
Do Not Judge Others
 37 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full—pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, running over, and poured into your lap. The amount you give will determine the amount you get back.[a]”

Footnotes:

   1. Luke 6:38 Or The measure you give will be the measure you get back.

[karajorma]

Well, "Christian" means "little Christ"... in other words, a follower of Christ.  One can be Catholic and be a true follower of Christ.  One can also be a Catholic and not be a true follower of Christ.  The same with Protestants.  There are plenty of Catholics and Protestants who are not (and who are) true followers of Christ.

Right, so suppose that the entire world was catholic and we had another protestant reformation. Who's going to judge and say whether these new protestants are "true Christians" or not?

[TrashMan]

Arguable. The large increase in peaceful Christianity is mostly linked to the large increase in secularism and a corresponding loss of power by the church. It's debatable how long that peacefulness would remain once Christians were the only ones left.

Actually its linked with Christianity maturing and abandoning it's agressive past, focusing on the true teachings of Christ.

Actually you did. You said that there were big wars being fought due to religion now and that they wouldn't be fought if the entire world was Christian. If you want to say that this was a mistake and you meant that there are wars being fought now which have a very small religious theme and that this theme wouldn't be there in a purely Christian world then I'll agree with you cause that's just common sense.

Let me clarify this - big religious wars have been fought in the past. The reasons behind them in most cases weren't religios, alltough the driving force was.
Back in Ye old days you had warmongerig priests that yearnd to burn hte heatens. Combine that with a uneducated mod and a greedy ruler and it's easy to see where it's going.

This just can't work today. Any priest calling for war would be kicked out of the Church and loose any credibility infront of the people.
In other words the real warmongers loose one relativly easy way to entice people to fight. There are others, but religion has allways awoken strong sentiments. Also the climate today is different.

Everything combined does equate to less fighting.

But even if you had a purely Christian world how would you keep it that way? How do you stop heresy? How do you stop schisms? Cause the only way to do that is to repress any other religions that start to spring up. Hardly most people's definition of the world being a better place.

I said the world would be a better place. I didn't say for how long.

The point is since humans are imperfect and all, nothing good we make will hold.
If hte people TRULY follwed Christ teachings, the world would b a wonderfull place. Fat chance of tht happening tough..maby it will be better after the Second Coming

[G0atmaster]

Lemme first apologize for my oversight of the Vatican.  My mistake.  Although, there's a number of issues with that, which are for another time.  For now let me address Kara's question:

Yet you argued that if there was only one religion there would be less war. Then you say that religion does not play a large part in any on-going war and that they are fought for many differing reasons which have little to do with religion.

So if war and religion are only loosely linked how would everyone being a Christian have any effect on the number of wars?

Feel free to commence backtracking now.

Because the ideal Christian life seriously and drastically minimizes and even tries to eliminate the cause for all war.  A man without pride has no reason to compete with his fellow man.  It's something that could only work if everyone on the planet were truly Christian (and I don't mean corrupt, twisted people using other peoples' beliefs to incite them to an unjust cause), but I assure you, if some such phenomenon were to ever happen, we'd be living in a utopia.  No greed, no pride, no murder... there wouldn't even be any reason for it!  If everyone "gave to those who asked," there'd be no way to steal anything!  The definition of theft would become null.

The evil in the sin of pride is not, as in envy, wanting what someone else has, but rather, wanting what someone else has because they have it.  A greedy person wants a sum of money.  A prideful person doesn't care so much about how much he has, only that he has more than the next man.  Do you have any idea what a better place the world would become if just this were to be eliminated?  That, my friend, is how the cause/effect relationship between Christianity and a decrease in war can come about without a direct correlation between the two.

[Mefustae]

...but I assure you, if some such phenomenon were to ever happen, we'd be living in a utopia.  No greed, no pride, no murder... there wouldn't even be any reason for it!

Right! Because no Christian has ever been greedy, prideful, or murdered anyone. Ever! In fact, if such a thing were to occur, this entire line of argument would be shot to hell! But it hasn't, so it's not! Yippie!

If everyone "gave to those who asked," there'd be no way to steal anything!  The definition of theft would become null.

The evil in the sin of pride is not, as in envy, wanting what someone else has, but rather, wanting what someone else has because they have it.  A greedy person wants a sum of money.  A prideful person doesn't care so much about how much he has, only that he has more than the next man.  Do you have any idea what a better place the world would become if just this were to be eliminated?

So after decades of the United States extolling the virtues of Christianity and 'God' over the godless Soviets, a perfect Christian society would be communist!? Surely you jest!

In all seriousness, have you - as a Christian - ever been greedy? Have you ever been jealous? Have you ever shown pride in your own work? Of course you have, because they're human emotions. They're what makes us human, and as much a part of us as any vital organ. They're not going to suddenly disappear because everyone prays to the same bloke in the sky! Unless you're talking about brainwashing, which is a whole different story. But I don't think you're talking about brainwashing, because you probably aren't. Are you?

That, my friend, is how the cause/effect relationship between Christianity and a decrease in war can come about without a direct correlation between the two.

Then explain to me why dominantly Christian societies have experiences schisms in the past? Why are there so many people who disagree with what Christianity really means? Or by 'Christianity', you're merely referring to your particular type of Christianity, and if everyone agreed your version was accurate, there would be no wars.

That's all well and good, but personally... I prefer free will. It's silly, I know, but it's just the way I am.

[karajorma]

Because the ideal Christian life seriously and drastically minimizes and even tries to eliminate the cause for all war.

So does the ideal Jewish life, the ideal Muslim life, the ideal Buddhist life, the ideal atheist life......

None of the major religions support war. They all want a peaceful life. Not just Christianity.

You've missed the point completely here. You're asking for two massive changes. You're asking for the world to be all Christian and you're asking for humanity to be ideal. It's actually the second one of those which would have the effect of reducing war and making the world a better place but you're trying to kid yourselves that it's the first one.

[G0atmaster]

All good arguments.  Wow, I somehow missed all of page 4 when I posted that.  Anyway, now I'll answer your questions:

Right! Because no Christian has ever been greedy, prideful, or murdered anyone. Ever! In fact, if such a thing were to occur, this entire line of argument would be shot to hell! But it hasn't, so it's not! Yippie!

What you forget is that while yes, Christians do experience these shortcomings, true Christians try very hard (and are more often than not exceedingly successful, I might add) at overcoming them.  I can say from experience on both sides of the coin that this is more true for Christians than non-Christians.  Also, I was talking about Christians as described by Trashman and JR2 above, the so-called "Little Christs."

So after decades of the United States extolling the virtues of Christianity and 'God' over the godless Soviets, a perfect Christian society would be communist!? Surely you jest!

  Maybe not Communist, but at least, MORE socialist than our current society.  Remember, this only works if everyone agrees to it unanimously (which is why it will probably not happen this side of Eternity)

In all seriousness, have you - as a Christian - ever been greedy? Have you ever been jealous? Have you ever shown pride in your own work? Of course you have, because they're human emotions. They're what makes us human, and as much a part of us as any vital organ. They're not going to suddenly disappear because everyone prays to the same bloke in the sky! Unless you're talking about brainwashing, which is a whole different story. But I don't think you're talking about brainwashing, because you probably aren't. Are you?

No, not at all.  I am by no means talking about brainwashing.  I don't believe greed, jealousy, and pride are the true nature of human beings, I believe that came later.  Pride was the first mistake Man ever made.  And by it, all we call misery today was brought in.  And not simply Man putting himself before other men, but man putting himself before God.  All of what we call human history since the Garden of Eden has been a series of Man trying to replace God, Man trying to say he's as good as God, Man trying to put himself first.  And Pride is the ultimate anti-God, because God is something which is immeasurably better than we are.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the emotion of "I'm as good as he is," not simply being proud of something as in being affectionate of something or someone, nor am I talking about pleasure in being praised for something.

Here's what C.S. Lewis has to say on a Christian-based society:

If there were such a society in existence and you or I visited it, I think we should come away with a curious impression.  We should feel that its economic life was very socialistic and, in that sense, "advanced," but that its family life and its code of manners were rather old-fashioned-perhaps even ceremonious and aristocratic.  Each of us would like some bits of it, but I am afraid very few of us would like the whole thing.  That is just what one would expect if Christianity is the total plan for the human machine.  We have all departed from that total plan in different ways, and each of us wants to make out that his own modification of the original plan is the plan itself.  You will find this again and again about anything that is really Christian: every one is attracted by bits of it and wants to pick out those bits and leave the rest.  That is why we do not get much further: and that is why people who are fighting for quite opposite things can both say they are fighting for Christianity.

Then explain to me why dominantly Christian societies have experiences schisms in the past? Why are there so many people who disagree with what Christianity really means? Or by 'Christianity', you're merely referring to your particular type of Christianity, and if everyone agreed your version was accurate, there would be no wars.

That's all well and good, but personally... I prefer free will. It's silly, I know, but it's just the way I am.

There are many doctrinal differences which have little or no importance in the grand scheme of things, and then there are other, more important disagreements on big issues.  I will point to what JR2 said about little Christs again for the definition of a Christian.  There is no perfect theology except what is specifically stated by the Bible, which does leave some things open to interpretation (which gets wrapped up nicely in the book of Romans, BTW) , so I live by the following saying in that regard: "In essentials, unity.  In nonessentials, liberty.  But in all things, Charity." (That's Charity as in the biblical sense of the word "Love," BTW).

FYI, I'm all for free will.  What, exactly, in the BIBLE (I'm not talking about what people have told you, but what have you actually read in the Bible) that makes you think Christians, or God, are against free will?  While you're at it, let me ask you this:  Why are you so vehemently against Christianity?

[G0atmaster]

Because the ideal Christian life seriously and drastically minimizes and even tries to eliminate the cause for all war.

So does the ideal Jewish life, the ideal Muslim life, the ideal Buddhist life, the ideal atheist life......

None of the major religions support war. They all want a peaceful life. Not just Christianity.

You've missed the point completely here. You're asking for two massive changes. You're asking for the world to be all Christian and you're asking for humanity to be ideal. It's actually the second one of those which would have the effect of reducing war and making the world a better place but you're trying to kid yourselves that it's the first one.

Without Christ, there's no point.

My argument is this:  Yes, it's two things.  But you see, the first brings about the second.

Wasn't it Mohammed who said that apostates (that is believers who turn away) should be put to the sword?

And Jews... For one, the Jews are a race as well as a religion.  According to the Jewish faith, the Israelites were THE chosen people of God.  The children of Jacob and no others.  The only way the whole world could become Jewish was if every non-Jew died out somehow.

And (at the slight risk of changing the subject of the debate) as for Atheists:    If you live as though God exists, and God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.  If you live as though God does not exist, and God does not exist, your gain is finite, and therefore negligible. 
If you live as though God does not exist and God truly does not exist, your gain is finite, and therefore negligible. But, if you live as though God does not exist, and God exists, you go to Hell, and your loss is infinite. 

That's not a gamble I'm willing to take.

[karajorma]

Without Christ, there's no point.

 I'm NOT interested in a theological discussion. I'm not interested in religious arguments about how without Christ souls are in danger.

The discussion I'm interested in is whether or not a purely Christian world would have real-world visible effects on peace. And whether those effects would be greater than if the world was comprised of another religion or none at all.

My argument is this:  Yes, it's two things.  But you see, the first brings about the second.

How? Christianity is no better on paper than any other religion. In fact if I had to pick a religion that was likely to bring about world peace Christianity would be quite far down the list. The central tenets of for instance Buddhism (karma and search for truth) are much more likely to have that effect than the central tenets of Christianity (devotion to single omniscient deity). 

Wasn't it Mohammed who said that apostates (that is believers who turn away) should be put to the sword?

The bible is equally full of brutality towards non-believers.

[G0atmaster]

Bhuddism believes that the only way a person can ever truly be at peace is if they don't exist anymore, and the only way to do that is to climb the ladder of reincarnation to eventually achieve, not nirvanna, which is oneness with the Universe, but simply nothing.  That is not a hopeful outlook whatsoever.  Why work so hard to gain nothing?  What a cruel universe indeed!  How can there ever be a hope for peace in such a place?

If one truly follows the teachings of Christ, how can a war be fought by only one person?  For Christ Himself says "Do not resist a wicked man."

No better on paper?  Really now?  When was the last time you heard of a man who wouldn't stay buried?  When was the last time you heard of a man who could transform water into wine?  Heck, if there were more people like Christ around, we wouldn't even have world hunger!  He fed 5000 with a little bread and a couple fish.

[G0atmaster]

Sorry for the double post again, but I just thought of another great example:

Where else, besides Christianity, do you have a man who went around persecuting, torturing and killing the followers of a specific teaching everywhere he went turn around and end up writing half of the doctrine for that religion?  That's how.  Look at the life of Saul (Paul).  Forgive me for again treading into theological waters, but an experience with Christ changes people.  It really does.

[karajorma]

And (at the slight risk of changing the subject of the debate) as for Atheists:    If you live as though God exists, and God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.  If you live as though God does not exist, and God does not exist, your gain is finite, and therefore negligible. 
If you live as though God does not exist and God truly does not exist, your gain is finite, and therefore negligible. But, if you live as though God does not exist, and God exists, you go to Hell, and your loss is infinite. 

That's not a gamble I'm willing to take.

I always laugh myself silly at such simple thinking. The question is always posed as a binary choice. God exists or he doesn't. It is nowhere near that simple. Suppose Allah is the true god and Christians go to hell while atheists go to limbo? Suppose the Hindus are correct? The Buddhists?

What if the bible is a test and you're supposed to use it to arrive at your own morality and think for yourself instead of slavishly following something you were told to do? What if THAT's how you get into heaven?


The whole "the odds are in my favour" argument is often posted by Christians and it's a pretty foolish one when it's examined even slightly. Besides believing in God to hedge your bets wouldn't get you into heaven anyway.

No better on paper?  Really now?  When was the last time you heard of a man who wouldn't stay buried?  When was the last time you heard of a man who could transform water into wine?  Heck, if there were more people like Christ around, we wouldn't even have world hunger!  He fed 5000 with a little bread and a couple fish.

I always laugh when religious people start quoting their fairy stories as if they MUST be true.

Actually Hindu myths are a much better read on paper. The bible doesn't even have a monkey battalion let alone an army!

[G0atmaster]

See, notice how I posted it under "as for atheists."  The Bible defines such people as fools, and you say that this argument is a foolish one.  No wonder.  It's still not as foolish as Atheism, and at least brings the argument to some form of Theism.  I didn't intend that statement to convert you.  It's intended to show an atheist why Christianity is something that is at least worth a good going-over in their head.

What if?  is the way to arrive at that morality simply to ignore it and thrash anyone who makes a slight mention of it?

I'm sorry for going here, but I guess this is where it's going.  I would like to get back to the original topic (which I've tried pretty hard to stick to), but since we're here: What if?  What if Christ really did rise from the grave?  What if he did really forgive sins as he claimed?  Do not, friend, make the mistake of claiming Christ as a good person and nothing more.  Imagine I stole your car, and Joe Schmoe said "Dustin, I forgive you for stealing Kara's car."  You would think him an idiot, wouldn't you?  So would I.  This person would have no right saying such a thing... unless he was in some way hurt more than you by my crime.  How would this be possible if he were not God?

This leaves us with only three things Christ could have been:  A lunatic, a demon, or God in the flesh.  I believe in the latter.  I'm not telling you what to believe by this, though.

[karajorma]

See, notice how I posted it under "as for atheists."  The Bible defines such people as fools, and you say that this argument is a foolish one.  No wonder.  It's still not as foolish as Atheism, and at least brings the argument to some form of Theism.  I didn't intend that statement to convert you.  It's intended to show an atheist why Christianity is something that is at least worth a good going-over in their head.

And what made you assume I haven't?

Your argument that it is a matter of a simple binary choice between belief in God and atheism is a foolish one. You'd first have to prove that Christianity is the only religion worth converting to, that it is above every other religion in the world. But if you did that you'd have succeeded in converting me at which point your argument (better known as Pascal's Wager) becomes moot anyway. That's why it's foolish. Not because belief in God is foolish but because the point at which you can claim that the choice is binary is the point at which it is no longer a choice at all.

What if?  What if Christ really did rise from the grave?  What if he did really forgive sins as he claimed?

Fine. Prove it. And I don't mean quote at me from the bible as if it must be true.

I'm sure you've heard all kinds of things about what atheists believe but the fact is judging from your responses you've probably never actually argued with someone who is a weak atheist (or even heard the term). The fact is that most atheists are weak atheists. That doesn't mean we say that God can't exist. It means that we say that there is simply no proof that elevates any religion above all the others so the only sensible point of view is to assume that they are all wrong until proof is found.

So yes I've considered that what if. Have you honestly considered that you might be wrong? Have you actually researched the other religions to prove that they are correct? Have you done so fairly and objectively without starting from the point of view that your particular sect of your particular religion is correct?

Cause I mentioned that Christianity was no better earlier and all you could do was quote the bible at me. If you had done that you should be able objectively state why Christianity is better than other religions. Cause right now I'm hearing nothing more than Christianity is better cause I believe it's true and therefore this stuff I believe to be true says it's better. That's a circular argument at best.

[Mefustae]

Bhuddism believes that the only way a person can ever truly be at peace is if they don't exist anymore, and the only way to do that is to climb the ladder of reincarnation to eventually achieve, not nirvanna, which is oneness with the Universe, but simply nothing.  That is not a hopeful outlook whatsoever.  Why work so hard to gain nothing?  What a cruel universe indeed!  How can there ever be a hope for peace in such a place?

Personally, I like to think of it this way: We didn't exist for the first 13.8 billion years the universe has been in existence, and i'm not hearing any complaints about that. In fact, I think you should be happy that you spent all that time not existing, otherwise you wouldn't have a nice planet and lots of other people here to call friends. Personally, the first 13.8 billion years I didn't exist breezed by so well that i'll have no problem doing the same for the next 13.8 billion years.

But then, i'm an atheist, and as such you can rest assured that i'll probably burn in the agonizing pits of Hell for entertaining such terrible, terrible thoughts. Y'know, exercising my free will to not believe in a religion. The Bible may extol the virtues of free will, just not too free, y'know?