[karajorma]

But my views on that are, to be blunt: How can someone who claims to love God choose to live a lifestyle so contrary to what He's all about?

Why is it contrary? You're claiming that there are only two laws (or at least Trashman is and you seem to be agreeing with him). Being gay breaks neither of them. Stealing hurts the person you stole from. Domestic abuse obviously hurts the person you abuse. Who does being gay hurt? Only people who aren't obeying the whole "Treat others and you would treat yourself" rule.

So where is homosexuality outlawed then?

[TrashMan]

After seeing the response the Christians got none of them have been stupid enough to claim on this thread that the world would be better off under them.

Eh? It would be better...far better than under you for instance

So again I'll ask the question. How does being homosexual have any effect on how much you love God or on loving others as you love yourself?

Or are you claiming that the whole anti-homosexual thing is only being done by those who aren't true Christians?

IIRC, the Churchs position on it is that homesexualims isn't normal....isn't natural (and I'm not talking in the stictly natural sense...so what if it happens in nature. A lot of bad things happen in nature too, that's no reason to embrace them).
Basicly, it's not being born gay that's bad..it's giving in to the wrong urges...it's not like it's a very big deal in the end.

Assuming hte Church interpretation is right and the indulging inot said acts really is sinfull, it still wouldn't be so bad that the person is sent ot hell automaticly. It would be a minor transgression at best, and it's not like ppl don't do minor transgressions only rarely.

[TrashMan]

One thing that's always bothered me about this is...

Is it a sacrifice if you know you're going to resurrect three days later?

Well, you still feel the pain, you still are haited and beaten up. So yes.

[Mefustae]

But my views on that are, to be blunt: How can someone who claims to love God choose to live a lifestyle so contrary to what He's all about?

Okay, that's the party line, but what do you think.

A more pressing question is: Why? I get that God has said that it is 'sinful', but does the fact that he's an omnipotent superbeing mean he's above explanations? Moreover, Kara raises a good point in that homosexuality doesn't hurt a soul. This is why i'm not too fond of religion; nobody has the sense to ask 'why?'.

IIRC, the Churchs position on it is that homesexualims isn't normal....isn't natural (and I'm not talking in the stictly natural sense...so what if it happens in nature. A lot of bad things happen in nature too, that's no reason to embrace them).
Basicly, it's not being born gay that's bad..it's giving in to the wrong urges...it's not like it's a very big deal in the end.

Assuming hte Church interpretation is right and the indulging inot said acts really is sinfull, it still wouldn't be so bad that the person is sent ot hell automaticly. It would be a minor transgression at best, and it's not like ppl don't do minor transgressions only rarely.

'Interpretation'? We're talking about condemning a pretty damn group of people, and it's coming down to a matter of interpretation!? So is the Church pushing its own agenda, or the will of God?

[TrashMan]

Everything in life is open to interpretation really...more or less.

Don't forget one isn't coneming the people, but rather the bahaviour.

As to why and whom does it hurt...well, maby God sees the bigegr picture.
Maby he thinks/knows homosexuality is simply bad for humanity in general, for their moral and spiritual development.
Many things can be harmfull in the long run, in ways different than you'd think, while seemingly harmless.

[Mefustae]

Many things can be harmfull in the long run, in ways different than you'd think, while seemingly harmless.

Interesting thought: What if God is harmful in the long run? I mean, God teaches his followers to ignore any who would try to sway you from the path, to obey him absolutely, and rewards you for pledging your allegiance. How exactly do you know that God isn't a charlatan or some other type of bad guy? He never feels like He has to explain anything to his followers, a classic example of megalomania.

What if God is essentially an Ori? He gains strength from worship, and this whole 'heaven' thing is just a ruse to get more groupies?

[TrashMan]

You've been watching too much Sci-fi.

Gaining strength from worship? How would even that work?

God is God. He's he creator of the universe, the Alpha and Omega. I guess he can be bad for you if you piss him off

[Mefustae]

Gaining strength from worship? How would even that work?

God "created the universe"? How would even that work?

God can see all and hear all? How would even that work?

God can see the "real you"? How would even that work?

God is all powerful, all knowing, everlasting, etc? How would even that work?

Ad infinitum...

You ask for an explanation from me, while ignoring the massive logical fallacies and impossibilities sitting right in front of you. Why are my outlandish claims any different from the outlandish claims of someone 2000 years ago? Age =/= Reliability.

[TrashMan]

The definition of God implies omnipotence..as such, your worship is inconsequental.

[karajorma]

Yes but where did your definition of God come from? According to you, from God. So if God is lying to you about his motives he could just as easily be lying to you about what God is.

Whether you agree with Mefustae's point or not you can't simply dismiss it with a dictionary reference explanation of what God is without looking at whether whoever wrote the dictionary might have a vested interest in an inaccurate definition.

IIRC, the Churchs position on it is that homesexualims isn't normal....isn't natural

But why is that the Church's position? You've told me that there are only two laws in the bible. This is not defined by either of those laws. The simple fact that should be obvious to anyone is that there are more than the two laws in the New Testament. However if you're going to continue with this farce let me try another method.

The Church's position on black people is that they are wrong and unnatural. Now prove me wrong. Prove that the bible doesn't say that. And do it in a way that shows me why that same argument doesn't apply to homosexuals. You can only use your two laws.

[Mefustae]

The Church's position on black people is that they are wrong and unnatural. Now prove me wrong. Prove that the bible doesn't say that. And do it in a way that shows me why that same argument doesn't apply to homosexuals. You can only use your two laws.

Careful! You'll make him explode!

[TrashMan]

If you belive in immortal sci-fi aliens then do. That's not my problem.

Any "entity" that created the universe would have unimmaginable power. So why would it need worship?

If it didn't create the universe, then that entity is constranied by it, and thus by it's laws. So immortality and "gaining power from worship" are fairy tales.

How do I know everything is not a lie? I don't. How do you know everything YOU know isn't a lie?.




As for your second part.
Protecting humanity, not only from physical harm but also moral one then doesn't fall under the "love" category according to you?
Whatever man...whatever.

[karajorma]

Protecting them from what?

You've failed to explain what is the danger here. Except that God would damn you. Even if you loved him and your fellow humans.

[achtung]

Religion only seeds distrust and disagreement.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuals being who they are.  The only reason I see behind Christianity's position on the matter is reproduction.  Way back when people wanted sex, but they didn't have condoms, and didn't want kids.  So what did they do?  Joe ****ed John.  They got their pleasure, and they didn't have a kid to worry about.

This was seen as a threat to the whole "go forth and prosper" idea in some of the  (totally human, not being driven by a divine "power") religious writer's eyes, and was "outlawed".

Masturbation is seen in the same light, but to a lesser extent.

So there, that's my reasoning behind it, no moral problems in it.  Of course that's not magical enough an explanation for some, so I'm sure it will be thrown aside as nonsense.

[G0atmaster]

Yes but where did your definition of God come from? According to you, from God. So if God is lying to you about his motives he could just as easily be lying to you about what God is.

Whether you agree with Mefustae's point or not you can't simply dismiss it with a dictionary reference explanation of what God is without looking at whether whoever wrote the dictionary might have a vested interest in an inaccurate definition.

IIRC, the Churchs position on it is that homesexualims isn't normal....isn't natural

But why is that the Church's position? You've told me that there are only two laws in the bible. This is not defined by either of those laws. The simple fact that should be obvious to anyone is that there are more than the two laws in the New Testament. However if you're going to continue with this farce let me try another method.

The Church's position on black people is that they are wrong and unnatural. Now prove me wrong. Prove that the bible doesn't say that. And do it in a way that shows me why that same argument doesn't apply to homosexuals. You can only use your two laws.

Regardless of what the Church says, GOD'S position on homosexuality is that it is wrong and unnatural, it is completely against His intentions for us.  You're right, God could be lying about who God is.  By that logic, any man who tells you he is not a liar or that he is telling the truth is obviously lying!  So how do you, sir, trust anyone?  The answer is by their actions.  God Himself shaped me and my life.  While I was still His enemy, he died for me.  While I was actively working against Him, He died for me.  Who does that but a man so filled with love it doesn't matter that I'm so against Him!

You think God, the Creator of the Universe, the possessor of the ultimate "I-can-do-whatever-I-want" badge, has anything to gain by misleading men?  Tell me you aren't serious.

In Leviticus, God talks about Homosexuality, beastiality, and all manner of other sorts of perverse acts and tells us in no uncertain terms that they are disgusting, unnatural, and should not be done.

A homosexual doesn't follow this.  The black man in your example is committing no such sin by simply being black.  Also, regardless of whether its from birth or not, a homosexual can avoid having same sex relationships.  A black man has no active part in the color of his skin the way a man has over his sexuality.

That's besides the point though.  Both the black man and the homosexual are loved by God.

God's motives were revealed in our creation.  They were further reinforced when He TOOK our death penalty.  IDK how much more transparent God could possibly be.

[G0atmaster]

Religion only seeds distrust and disagreement.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuals being who they are.  The only reason I see behind Christianity's position on the matter is reproduction.  Way back when people wanted sex, but they didn't have condoms, and didn't want kids.  So what did they do?  Joe ****ed John.  They got their pleasure, and they didn't have a kid to worry about.

This was seen as a threat to the whole "go forth and prosper" idea in some of the  (totally human, not being driven by a divine "power") religious writer's eyes, and was "outlawed".

Masturbation is seen in the same light, but to a lesser extent.

So there, that's my reasoning behind it, no moral problems in it.  Of course that's not magical enough an explanation for some, so I'm sure it will be thrown aside as nonsense.

If that's the case, where, pray tell, does adultery fit in?  That seems to be contrary to that belief.  I mean, if everyone went around having sex with everyone else's spouse, we'd be a whole lot more reproductive.

There's more to it than just that, man.

[achtung]

No, the only reason adultery is against the rules is because it would result in jealousy and violence.  Possibly even lowering the human population.

[karajorma]

Regardless of what the Church says, GOD'S position on homosexuality is that it is wrong and unnatural, it is completely against His intentions for us.

How do you know that?

In Leviticus, God talks about Homosexuality, beastiality, and all manner of other sorts of perverse acts and tells us in no uncertain terms that they are disgusting, unnatural, and should not be done.

The Old Testament is full of all manner of acts for which you should be stoned. Leviticus also says that you should put children who curse you to death. It's chock full of things which are disgusting and unnatural. Yet Jesus himself sarcastically repeated that injunction as proof that it was no longer valid as a result of the new covalent that God was forming with man via his death and resurrection.

So we can safely discount Leviticus as proof of what is disgusting and unnatural. Especially given that both yourself and Trashman used exactly that argument to counter Ghostavo's post about stoning disobedient children.

In fact the whole reason we're having this debate is because I'm sick and tired of Christians quoting morals from the Old Testament when it suits them and then claiming that the same morals have been superseded by the new covenant with Christ when it doesn't. Pick one and stick with it! Or at least have the grace to explain why you're picking and choosing between things that God finds disgusting in the Old Testament.   



So I ask you again.

But just to be clear on this. Any laws from the old testament is null and void unless restated in the new testament, right?

[Hazaanko]

In fact the whole reason we're having this debate is because I'm sick and tired of Christians quoting morals from the Old Testament when it suits them and then claiming that the same morals have been superseded by the new covenant with Christ when it doesn't. Pick one and stick with it! Or at least have the grace to explain why you're picking and choosing between things that God finds disgusting in the Old Testament.   

So I ask you again.

But just to be clear on this. Any laws from the old testament is null and void unless restated in the new testament, right?

First you have to understand that just like any other world religion, each faction/sect has their own view on scripture and their own interpretation of it.  Even geographically individual churches and the people in them will have differing opinions about doctrine.  Don't assume just because you've read the Bible and decided on your own that it doesn't make sense and has loads of contradictions that you know what an individual Christian believes.  The difference is, you don't walk outside and see Christians stoning children who curse or hanging homosexuals wherever they are found.

If you WANT this to turn into a theological discussion, then so be it, but be prepared to receive all kinds of differing opinions regarding it.

[karajorma]

I'll settle for having Trashman and GOatmaster's position on the matter in black and white so they can't rescind or go back on it later.