[karajorma]

BUt from your point of view Christians should be against, not for the death penalty then?

[Mefustae]

I personally don't believe in capital punishment, but for an almost entirely different reason.  Remember, the State is not a Christian one, but in a Christian society, there would be no place for capital punishment.  There'd even be no place for the crimes that are punished by capital punishment in our current social model.

Which brings us back the ultra-far fetched notion that all humans, everywhere, ever, will stop acting like dicks just because they mumble to the same bloke. Being Christian does not eliminate crime, in fact it'd probably encourage it what with the "we don't mind that you stole, we forgive you!" stuff.

[Snail]

Personally I support capital punishment. But the fact that people can be hanged for technicality does piss me off.

[G0atmaster]

I don't think Christians should be for the death penalty, personally.  Although there's nothing in the Bible that expressly forbids it, I simply don't feel we have the right to cut a person's life short.  Many people accept Christ in prison.  I feel we need to give them as much opportunity to do so as possible.



That's one way to look at it, Mefustae, however, it's more than mumbling to some bloke in the sky, it's a way of life.  One which very strongly frowns on being a dick.

[Mefustae]

That's one way to look at it, Mefustae, however, it's more than mumbling to some bloke in the sky, it's a way of life.  One which very strongly frowns on being a dick.

Society in general frowns on murder, theft and rape, but that doesn't stop anything. Why would a Christian society be any different?

[Hazaanko]

That's one way to look at it, Mefustae, however, it's more than mumbling to some bloke in the sky, it's a way of life.  One which very strongly frowns on being a dick.

Society in general frowns on murder, theft and rape, but that doesn't stop anything. Why would a Christian society be any different?

I've only vaguely been following this thread.  I'm a huge Theology nut, especially in the realm of tying doctrines to real life.  Christian belief is a lot more than teaching the things society already tells you not to do.  It can get pretty detailed.  But if you don't read the bible or get involved in that kind of stuff, you'll never know.  It is usually the small and simple things that make all the difference in the end.  That kind of stuff society just doesn't get.





........... ***passes out***

[karajorma]

Society in general frowns on murder, theft and rape, but that doesn't stop anything. Why would a Christian society be any different?

Cause again he's assuming a society where not only is everyone a Christian but that they are ideal too. And as I said right from the start a society of ideal people has no crime regardless of the religion.

[TrashMan]

Society in general frowns on murder, theft and rape, but that doesn't stop anything. Why would a Christian society be any different?

Christians frown upon it even mroe..le'ts not forget the minor transgressions.
One doesn't simply switch for a nice kid to a cold-bloded murdered. A whole chain of bad decisions and influences pawes the way to that.

A christian society would indeed be better in some respects, as ti woukd positivly influence and encourage ppl from day 1.

[karajorma]

Good parenting would have that effect anyway.

Even when the church did have power the world wasn't the utopia that you paint a Christian world to be simply because most people simply paid lip service to the values espoused by the church and largely ignored it during every day life.

[vyper]

That's one way to look at it, Mefustae, however, it's more than mumbling to some bloke in the sky, it's a way of life.  One which very strongly frowns on being a dick.

Before we end up in a Plato like debate on the ideal society/state I think I should point out just how much I roofled at this line.

[Asuko]

It might be worth being careful to say that a Christian society is not necessarily an ideal society. America might be a Christian society by majority but it is quite certainly not an ideal society.

Also, be careful in saying that a Christian society is placed over other societies. That's just a biased assumption.

[G0atmaster]

It hit me today like a freight train, the perfect way to answer your question, Mefustae.

That's one way to look at it, Mefustae, however, it's more than mumbling to some bloke in the sky, it's a way of life.  One which very strongly frowns on being a dick.

Society in general frowns on murder, theft and rape, but that doesn't stop anything. Why would a Christian society be any different?

Here's why:  According to the Bible, which all Christians believe, Christ, who all Christians do their very best to be like, was telling what the Day of Judgement would look like:

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

In other words,  W are not only to treat others as we would treat ourselves, but as we would treat Christ Himself.  Here's lyrics to a song I heard that further illustrates this point.  It's called "Under Bridges" by a band called Brave Saint Saturn:

Yesterday while walking,
Beneath an overpass,
I saw the figure of Jesus,
Standing barefoot on broken glass.
His beard was graying,
The smell of urine filled the air,
Asking if I had some change,
Anything that I could spare.

Emaciated,
His shaking fists balled up,
Influenza and pneumonia,
Begging God to take his cup.
So different from his pictures,
Breathing air through yellowed tubes,
Jesus Christ, dying of AIDS,
Can look right through you.

And all have hated,
Crucified and walked away,
The Savior of the prostitutes,
Drunkards, rapists, and the gays.

Under bridges,
With hands raised,
From the ghettos they praise his name.
Broke and crippled in the dark of night,
Raise your voices to Jesus Christ,
Hallelujah.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to murder, rape or steal from Christ, even in my worst enemy.

P.S.  America is by no means a Christian society.  Let me tell you that right now.

[Ghostavo]

Was medieval Europe a christian society then?

[Mefustae]

It hit me today like a freight train, the perfect way to answer your question, Mefustae.

*Snip*

But the fact remains that you're not talking about a Christian society, you're talking about a perfect society that happens to be Christian. The Bible doesn't hold a monopoly on the "do unto others" school of thought, and society in general encourages everyone to think this way. In fact, modern society does a heck of a lot more to discourage misbehaviour in that it punishes transgressions in the here and now, rather than presenting the theoretical possibility for punishment in the afterlife. When I was a kid, I didn't steal because I knew that I would get spanked, not that I would someday be punished in a vague fashion.

Would you prefer we lock up someone for committing triple homicide, or we just politely inform them that they will face judgement in the future and let them on their way?

[Asuko]

G0atmaster, belief in something and practicing something are completely different things.

I understand what you mean by that a Christian society would not want to have crimes occur. The thing is this applies to most societies in general.

I believe the difference you're trying to pick up is that a Christian society would more likely follow certain ideals such as anti-abortion or anti-gay marriage. Is that more or less what you're trying to say?

[G0atmaster]

1. Medieval Europe was more of a Christian society than today's America, but I do not believe it was a Christ-centered society, that is a society centered around the instructions Christ left for us.

2. it may not be the only "do unto others" group, but it is the founder of that philosophy.  As for a perfect society that happens to be Christian...  A completely Christian society would be just that, and nothing less.  It is not possible for such a thing to occur on this side of Eternity, but if everyone on Earth suddenly dropped everything and lived by the teachings and examples Christ laid down for us, we would literally have Heaven on Earth.  Now, I don't know what society you've been living in, but from what I can tell, the American mentality is not "do unto others," but rather a combination of "it's not happening if it's not happening here," "What's in it for me," and "if it feels good, do it."  That's what I see today coming out of this great country.

For your other point, Mefustae, I would much prefer a world where triple homicides were unheard of.  It takes two people to fight.  I'd rather not face evil with evil.  Call me crazy, but I am a firm believer that if evil is left to run its course, much like a wildfire, it will eventually burn itself out and cease to exist.  If I offer my possessions freely, I needn't worry about theft any longer.  By your own logic, we should have the death penalty for even the pettiest of crimes in order to eliminate crime.

Asuko, not exactly.  That would be true, but I was talking about simply why the world would be a better place if everyone were a Christian.

[karajorma]

it may not be the only "do unto others" group, but it is the founder of that philosophy.

The concept of Karma which is fundamental to Buddhism says much the same thing and got there way before Christ was born. And I doubt that it was the first religion to get there either. While there may be differences in the way they are written or the punishment for breaking the rules functionally they are the same.

As for a perfect society that happens to be Christian...  A completely Christian society would be just that, and nothing less.

So would a complete society of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs or atheists if you use the same definitions you are using for Christians. You seem to be having trouble realising that the perfection comes from the people being perfect, not from any inherent superiority of Christianity.

Let me make it easier for you. You claim that a Christian society would be perfect because everyone would "do unto others". Now tell me why a society which completely believed in Karma would do any less well?

[Asuko]

Asuko, not exactly.  That would be true, but I was talking about simply why the world would be a better place if everyone were a Christian.

Ah yes, the end of the flame war at last. Let reason rule.

I also happen to believe that a completely Christian society would not be a perfect society. Part of the reason why we tend to have different religions is because we are all different. That is also another reason why it is hard to have a unified society. We would not always agree with all of our ideals.

Going into what little of psychology I know, we always have an id that reflects our impulsive, yet often riskier actions, and a superego that combats that by trying to follow the rules. In between is the ego that balances both of them. A good/bad complex perhaps?

[G0atmaster]

Because in the case of Kharma, you're trying to reach up to the heavens with your actions, you're attempting to make yourself better.  You do what you do because you feel you have to, not because you want to.  You're not a better person for it, you're merely doing what you have to to get by.  In Christianity, and Christianity is unique in this, God reaches down to the people, not the other way around.  God befriends Man, God gives freely to Man.  And for this, for what God has done for us, we love Him.  We strive to go above and beyond what we have to to simply get by in eternity.  We aren't reaching for Heaven, we've been reached by God.  I'm having a mild bit of trouble articulating exactly what I want to say, but that's the basic jist of it.

[karajorma]

And why would that have any appreciable effects on Earth?