[Black Wolf]

Part of the reason the USA rose to economic dominance over Europe was courtesy of its position with natural resources (that's also what allowed the the US to mobilize and make a significant contribution to the Second World War in less than 5 years).  The only two countries that eclipse Chinese natural resources are Russia (in Siberia) and Canada.

Ahem.

Apart from oil, we're as good or better in almost all hard-rock extractable minerals, plus we've got masses still to explore. Being essentially built of greenstone belts helps with that.

[TrashMan]

When you consider that China was essentially a backward, agrarian nation with virtually no industry at the outset of the Second World War, the speed and efficiency of their economic development has eclipsed every Western nation on the planet.  It took them basically 50 years to do what took Britain, France, and the USA nearly 150.

Methinks you're putting China down here. IMHO, I don't think it was that backward or undeveloped back then. Give it some credit
Also, while it does have a lot of resources, it also has a lot of mouths to feed.

[Kosh]

Methinks you're putting China down here. IMHO, I don't think it was that backward or undeveloped back then. Give it some credit

Not really, it's a historical fact that it was horribly backwards. You're talking about a place where, until around the 1970's and 80's most places didn't even have electricity.

[Admiral_Stones]

A lot of mouths to feed?
Well, no county is complaining with it's food policys, even when thei're not really fair, you can see that the county is running and birth rate exceeds death rate.
Besides, no other county should mess with it's 2,25 million army and the old russian buddies. They can easily 'convince' someone to give them food.

/EDIT: AND they have at least 550 million persons fit for military service, which they probably wouldn't hesitate to use in emergency. PLUS another 660 millions NOT fit for service.

[WeatherOp]

Am I the only one that sees how diabolically sweet this would be. All you would have to do is load it with rocks strong enough to survive re-entry, and toss them. Would likely have the force on impact to flatten just about anything. Of course if you didn't aim right it could overshoot a few hundred miles and hit your ally. Then thats when you just blame it on an asteroid.

Umm... no. That's why we're all discussing the implications. If everyone thought it was a sissy weapon, why would they be concerned?

Actually nearly all of this thread is discussing the economics of China and the US. But, I see no posts of how cool this weapon is.

[Bob-san]

A lot of mouths to feed?
Well, no county is complaining with it's food policys, even when thei're not really fair, you can see that the county is running and birth rate exceeds death rate.
Besides, no other county should mess with it's 2,25 million army and the old russian buddies. They can easily 'convince' someone to give them food.

/EDIT: AND they have at least 550 million persons fit for military service, which they probably wouldn't hesitate to use in emergency. PLUS another 660 millions NOT fit for service.

Remember that, despite the pitiful size of our own army, we have a magnificent Navy. Also, remember that human beings don't stand a chance against a major strike. I believe that a war of USA v. China would result in a lot of nuclear fallout--more-so then a war of USA v. Fmr. USSR.

[TrashMan]

What's the point of having 500 million soldiers if you can't get them to the enemy positions (talk about a logistical nightmare )

That said, methinks space-based weapons are cool. I'd like them to push the research into that avenue. Space cruisers anyone?

[achtung]

What's the point of having 500 million soldiers if you can't get them to the enemy positions (talk about a logistical nightmare )

Getting them there?  Think about keeping them supplied, now that's a real nightmare.

[Admiral_Stones]

Well, I think DEFCON 1 is reached if China directly declares the U.S.A. war directly. I guess...
BTW, arent there UN regulations about using Nukes or so? By the time U.S.A. gets the right to use them, China already blowed the **** outta that soil.

[colecampbell666]

The only two countries that eclipse Chinese natural resources are Russia (in Siberia) and Canada.

Yeah but 80% of the Alberta Tar Sands, one of the largest oil deposits outside of the Middle East, are owned by South Korea.

[Mika]

MP-Ryan, based on your writings I think you have been in China yourself, would this be true?

But yes, I see this time it was the Chinese who started the space arms race with their satellite destroyer. Which is pretty much the logical answer to US JDAM munitions. And wasn't it just recently when the Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of US carrier group just to say hello? The problem was that nobody noticed it before - or then another possibility (unlikely) is that the Navy damn well knew it was there, but they say this to get more funds.

Speaking of the financial stuff, the thing is that if the Chinese crash the US, to whom are they gonna sell their goods then? Even though EU is separated from US, it is not that separated. They would also be digging their own grave.

Somebody said that

When you consider that China was essentially a backward, agrarian nation with virtually no industry at the outset of the Second World War, the speed and efficiency of their economic development has eclipsed every Western nation on the planet.  It took them basically 50 years to do what took Britain, France, and the USA nearly 150.

The fact is, China was and still is a developing nation! The cost of the development and economical growth has been terrible and will remain so, which is pretty much obvious for anyone visiting there. Chinese themselves tend to think it is only temporary situation, while I find it rather hard to believe.

In my opinion, China probably could not compete against Developed Countries if it faced the same legislation regarding pollution, environmental conditions and work. With the current conditions however, it is the developed nations that cannot compete against China, since it is indeed as someone put it, the most capitalistic nation on Earth. Sucks to be you if you happened to live from the nearby pond which contains Mercury and water both in noticeable quantities. On the other hand, no situation is really static and nations just have to adapt and react to the changes.

Besides, even in Europe there is at least a single nation that pushed itself from the agrarian status to developed country in less than 40 years while managing to do some other amazing things at the same time, and by this time I mean the time after WWII officially ended. All without environmental damage. And this comes from a nation without 4000 years of history of glorious civilized nation.

Ach, enough of opinions for today

Mika

[Hazaanko]

since it is indeed as someone put it, the most capitalistic nation on Earth. Sucks to be you if you happened to live from the nearby pond which contains Mercury and water both in noticeable quantities.

Yes, because capitalism means poisoning people with mercury and not caring.
*sniff* *sniff* I smell a capitalism hater. 

[TrashMan]

Yes, because capitalism means poisoning people with mercury and not caring.
*sniff* *sniff* I smell a capitalism hater. 

Well actually, yes. It does mean just that.

[lenard27]

Money? What money? We don't have your money. We never had your money. It is a lie!

Try to take it from us and we will pull all of our products from you countries.
Think about it - no crapy TV shows, no Pepsi/coca-cola, no McDonalds, no big Brother, no crappy rap/gangsta music!

erm...

On second thought, if you try to take out money we will MASS import this stuff even more!

Good call, thats the worst weapon of all.  Our cola will rot their teeth so you can't chew that ****ty McDonald's food and they will choke and die.  The US in invincible for that reason.  And we're immune because we're all so fat over here that we can just swallow a Big Mac whole.

But seriously, no good can come of this. 

[BengalTiger]

The only real opposition the Chinese face for global economic supremacy are the European Union, which is the only political body with the financial clout to do a little fiddling of their own.

Dude, whatever U're smokin- GIMME SOME!!!

The EU does NOT have economic supremacy over the Chinese or US, and it will fall behind being more and more a nanny state.
Europe will also be a retarded Muslim state in 20 years (look at France today- riots after each criminal killed while running from the cops), excluding countries like Poland, the Czech Republic etc, where there aren't many immigrants from the Middle East.
Another thing is that Europe (maybe except the UK and Poland) tends to be as pacifistic as possible, so don't count on military opposition either.

Besides, no other county should mess with it's 2,25 million army and the old russian buddies. They can easily 'convince' someone to give them food.

I'd like to see them 'convince' India.
BTW- I think it's the 'old russian buddies' that fear China most today- they have future Chinese resources, and if they didn't have nukes, Siberia would probably be a current Chinese resource dump.

/EDIT: AND they have at least 550 million persons fit for military service, which they probably wouldn't hesitate to use in emergency. PLUS another 660 millions NOT fit for service.

So they have manpower. They also have some modern production tech, thanks to the West.
What they don't have is:
-way advanced weapons (such as a fleet of stealth military planes or tanks with depleted uranium embedded in their armor)
-enough oil (China and India are one of the main reasons of the hellish price of petroleum)
-a way to get more oil other than buying or beginning WW III.
-a growing neighbor-superpower: India, which is a friend of the US.

One more thing- someone wrote that the US is digging their own grave with a shovel made in China by spending so much that the dollar is going down, and US public debt is going up. I think the grave is for China:

A cheaper dollar is good for the US to export stuff (ie. crappy TV shows, Pepsi/coca-cola, McDonalds etc ). It's also bad for China because the $5 they earn today is worth less than the $5 a few years ago for the same 'Made in China' product. Oil prices are growing, forcing China to spend more cash on it since they need to import a lot and their demand is growing fast.

The US are friends with India, providing alternative cheap labor and huge amounts of manpower, which means that China will be slowed down on their way to becoming a superpower.

The Persian Gulf belongs to the USA, so China can't take the oil for themselves without WW III. In the near future, when Iraq will grow up to stop terrorism on it's own and Iran will be occupied by the US (thanks to their crazy president who won't stop developing his A-Bomb untill it can be used against Israel)- China will be paying US companies for crude. Since Big Oil = Big Tax Money, I doubt the US budget will fail anytime soon.

Summing up- China will need to rely on oil owned by America in the next few years, so they lost before the games even began, and they can't do anything about it.

[NGTM-1R]

MP-Ryan, based on your writings I think you have been in China yourself, would this be true?

But yes, I see this time it was the Chinese who started the space arms race with their satellite destroyer. Which is pretty much the logical answer to US JDAM munitions. And wasn't it just recently when the Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of US carrier group just to say hello? The problem was that nobody noticed it before - or then another possibility (unlikely) is that the Navy damn well knew it was there, but they say this to get more funds.

Speaking of the financial stuff, the thing is that if the Chinese crash the US, to whom are they gonna sell their goods then? Even though EU is separated from US, it is not that separated. They would also be digging their own grave.

Problems.

The GPS satellites were and remain out of range of any current ASAT technology fielded by anyone, possibly excepting the Russians who had a kamikaze satellite version that they tested once or twice before the ASAT treaty. They are in high geosynch orbit and mainly unreachable. They were put there for precisely that reason; the same goes for military communications satellites. China's ASAT program doesn't even have anything that will kill a satellite yet, though they do have ground-based lasers they can use to try and disable thermal imaging satellites. So far they haven't been successful.

As for the submarine...I'm going to have call BS on this unless it was within this month; otherwise it's very unlikely I wouldn't have seen something in Proceedings. More to the point, it's very unlikely period. China's rather short on capable submarines; perhaps a Kilo could do it, but they don't have many of those, and the crews aren't very good. The PLAN is a massive joke compared to the Russians or the Brits, never mind the USN. Also recall that the USN, like all NATO navies, has spent several generations practicing against the day when they might have to hold the door open in the North Atlantic against a surge of vastly more capable, considerably more numerous, and much better crewed Red Banner Northern Fleet submarines.

Sad truth: defense against current PLAN submarine force is basically zigzagging at 30 knots. Most of them wouldn't be able to achieve firing posistion. Those that could would have to move fast enough they'll make enough noise the ASW aircraft will nab them.

[MP-Ryan]

Apart from oil, we're as good or better in almost all hard-rock extractable minerals, plus we've got masses still to explore. Being essentially built of greenstone belts helps with that.

In terms of sheer potential, Russia, Canada, and China (in that order) all have natural resource capacities which well exceed the United States.  Western states *presently* have the edge in exploration and extraction, but I don't see that lasting given the rapid industrial development of Russia and China.

Remember that, despite the pitiful size of our own army, we have a magnificent Navy. Also, remember that human beings don't stand a chance against a major strike. I believe that a war of USA v. China would result in a lot of nuclear fallout--more-so then a war of USA v. Fmr. USSR.

As this tangent was kind of saying, a hotwar between the USA and China is quite improbable, given that military defeats in the field are no longer a prerequisite for strategic defeat.

Yeah but 80% of the Alberta Tar Sands, one of the largest oil deposits outside of the Middle East, are owned by South Korea.

That was kinda my point.  Western countries are quite happily selling out their natural resources to the highest bidder.  By the way, I'm from Edmonton, AB, so I'm quite well aware of the current oil sands issues =)

MP-Ryan, based on your writings I think you have been in China yourself, would this be true?

Nope, but international history is a little pet interest of mine.

In my opinion, China probably could not compete against Developed Countries if it faced the same legislation regarding pollution, environmental conditions and work.

Absolutely!  That's why the Chinese would never agree to something along the likes of Kyoto.

Besides, even in Europe there is at least a single nation that pushed itself from the agrarian status to developed country in less than 40 years while managing to do some other amazing things at the same time, and by this time I mean the time after WWII officially ended. All without environmental damage. And this comes from a nation without 4000 years of history of glorious civilized nation.

*coughtalkingaboutRussiaarewe?cough* =)  'Tis true.

The EU does NOT have economic supremacy over the Chinese or US, and it will fall behind being more and more a nanny state.
Europe will also be a retarded Muslim state in 20 years (look at France today- riots after each criminal killed while running from the cops), excluding countries like Poland, the Czech Republic etc, where there aren't many immigrants from the Middle East.
Another thing is that Europe (maybe except the UK and Poland) tends to be as pacifistic as possible, so don't count on military opposition either.

You've got to be an American college student, right? =)

The EU has far more in terms of investment opportunity and credibility of reach in global markets in the present day than does the USA.  This trend will only increase.  Your statement about France just tells me you don't really know what you're talking about - Europe is transitioning from a relatively closed rigid society to one which is gradually being forced to accept high rates of immigration and new cultures.  Much of the religious extremism in Europe today stems directly from old racial classes spilling over from the imperial era.  Europe needs immigrants (most European nations are well become replacement rate in terms of fertility) and will gradually liberalize their integration system to accept them.  The period today is transitional in nature, but all signs point to eventual stabilization as the last of the old order of Europe disappears with the increasing powers of the EU.  France is largely the main obstacle to this process.

As for military opposition, military solutions are terribly one dimensional, particularly in popular American culture today.  Military solutions solve few things, if any (since apprximately 1972, anyway), and as I already pointed out, strategic defeat no longer correlates to tactical defeat.

In short, the lines you just wrote are nothing more than typical conservative one-dimensional thinking regarding the state of the world, and countries thinking that way throughout the next century are going to get a real economic kick in the ass.

IMHO, the dominance of military superpowers in the global community ended in 1979.  Economics now paves the way to success or decline in the modern world, a fact that Bush is now learning much too late.

[Admiral_Stones]

MP-Ryan, based on your writings I think you have been in China yourself, would this be true?

But yes, I see this time it was the Chinese who started the space arms race with their satellite destroyer. Which is pretty much the logical answer to US JDAM munitions. And wasn't it just recently when the Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of US carrier group just to say hello? The problem was that nobody noticed it before - or then another possibility (unlikely) is that the Navy damn well knew it was there, but they say this to get more funds.

Speaking of the financial stuff, the thing is that if the Chinese crash the US, to whom are they gonna sell their goods then? Even though EU is separated from US, it is not that separated. They would also be digging their own grave.

Somebody said that

When you consider that China was essentially a backward, agrarian nation with virtually no industry at the outset of the Second World War, the speed and efficiency of their economic development has eclipsed every Western nation on the planet.  It took them basically 50 years to do what took Britain, France, and the USA nearly 150.

The fact is, China was and still is a developing nation! The cost of the development and economical growth has been terrible and will remain so, which is pretty much obvious for anyone visiting there. Chinese themselves tend to think it is only temporary situation, while I find it rather hard to believe.

In my opinion, China probably could not compete against Developed Countries if it faced the same legislation regarding pollution, environmental conditions and work. With the current conditions however, it is the developed nations that cannot compete against China, since it is indeed as someone put it, the most capitalistic nation on Earth. Sucks to be you if you happened to live from the nearby pond which contains Mercury and water both in noticeable quantities. On the other hand, no situation is really static and nations just have to adapt and react to the changes.

Besides, even in Europe there is at least a single nation that pushed itself from the agrarian status to developed country in less than 40 years while managing to do some other amazing things at the same time, and by this time I mean the time after WWII officially ended. All without environmental damage. And this comes from a nation without 4000 years of history of glorious civilized nation.

Ach, enough of opinions for today

Mika

You actually mean Switzerland, right?

[Mika]

Ah, and today I find myself again able to discuss some politiks. Time zones are fun.

This is new, no-one has said to me before that I would hate capitalism. Things like dumping your exhaust liquids (whatever they contained) in to a local pond or a lake is simply a fact of what is happening there and happened 150-200 years ago in Europe and USA. It is simply an example of maximizing your profit, and I would be interested to see what you would do if you could make that decision in reality (but I guess this I can't). Oh, and as probably everyone knows, this happened also in former Soviet Union, and is still happening in Russia. "Waste" being the nuclear submarines and stuff like that.

Oh, and BengalTiger, that is quite a spot on analysis on EU. The only thing to comment is that EU has a larger population than US and by current estimates it seems to have a larger GDP. This is not surprising, EU is economically strong area, but I'm not sure about the actual manufacturing. If manufacturing is outsourced, the economy tends to go down afterwards.

I'm not really a racist, and have met some nice Muslims around, but it is true that the Muslims have a large minority in France and Germany, enough to cause large scale problems. Even here they would prefer to have the Sharia law, instead of the law instituted by this country. My solution would be to kick those people out. No need to enjoy the asylum, freedom of speech, free schooling, financial support or medicine, etc. etc. all provided by that unpreferred law. For me it is either accept and obey or don't come.

Besides, even I can't speak much good about EU, what I know about it is that the system is far too byrocratized, too far away from common people to ever function properly. It will never have a quick response time, nor will there ever be a common consensus of anything. I see it mostly as a huge resource hog, that will take more than it can give. The only positive effects that I can see have been the common currency that is accepted around almost everywhere and the (almost) free mobility around. Which is actually not much different from the time before EU, if you don't count the money thing.

Oh, and not all European countries are as pacifistic as mentioned, nor are the people in them. According to my understanding, the inactivity is caused by the vested financial interests. On the other hand, come to think of a campaign planned by French, executed by Italy and Spain... come to think of it, you might see why the EU doesn't do too much militarily...

[TrashMan]

In my opinion, China probably could not compete against Developed Countries if it faced the same legislation regarding pollution, environmental conditions and work.

Absolutely!  That's why the Chinese would never agree to something along the likes of Kyoto.

And that's why we must nuke China! They will doom us all!