Author Topic: Further development of space-based weapons  (Read 10249 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
And that's why we must nuke China! They will doom us all! :drevil:

An excellent and adroit solution with only two flaws.

1. Croatia doesn't have any nukes
2. Croatia doesn't have any nukes

Now I know that technically that's only one flaw but I thought it was such a big one that it was worth mentioning twice.
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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
And that's why we must nuke China! They will doom us all! :drevil:

An excellent and adroit solution with only two flaws.

1. Croatia doesn't have any nukes
2. Croatia doesn't have any nukes

Now I know that technically that's only one flaw but I thought it was such a big one that it was worth mentioning twice.
TrashMan could easily model one, and if he left it untextured it would be invisible. ;7
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
There is something strange in the comment regarding the GPS satellites. The requirement of the geostationary orbit requires that the satellites stay above one spot on Earth, and Physics dictates that this can only happen at a given distance, which happens to be approximately 36 000 km. And it must be exactly above the equator of the Earth.

Checked it, oh, it was geosynchrous orbit, so the altitude is relaxed, but I still think the requirement is more related to the actual orbital Physics and remaining time above the target than to get the satellites as far as possible.

I don't know the capabilites of the China's anti-satellite missiles, but given that it was a surprise for the world that they could do it, are we sure we know all about the capabilities of that system? So that there won't be extra surprises? But what you say is probably true, it is hard to reach the satellite at that altitude.

The news about the Chinese submarine can be found here, not sure if it is BS. British people can probably say something about the magazine itself.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

Oh and about guesses of my whereabouts, it is not either Russia (they caused horrific environmental damage) or Switzerland, and lastly it doesn't really matter. It was a simple note that the industrialization can be done quickly, cleanly and efficiently if there is a will and that there are better examples of industrialization times even inside EU.

Lastly I don't know what to think when I hear that the times of wars is over and it will be more like economical competition. Last time such comments were made and believed and due to these reasons it almost ended badly. Be polite but always carry a big stick.

Mika
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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
Oh and about guesses of my whereabouts
You substituted a "k" for a "C" earlier so I'm going to guess Poland or The Czech Republic.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
And that's why we must nuke China! They will doom us all! :drevil:

An excellent and adroit solution with only two flaws.

1. Croatia doesn't have any nukes
2. Croatia doesn't have any nukes

Now I know that technically that's only one flaw but I thought it was such a big one that it was worth mentioning twice.
TrashMan could easily model one, and if he left it untextured it would be invisible. ;7

Yes. Not only that, I'll model a MESON warhead! Who will be a superpower then, eh? :p

Besides, who said Croatia needs nukes. Did I say that my country specificly needs to do the nuking?
All we need is a mad scientist who's willing to sell us a mind-controling device and we're ready to go! :drevil:
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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
And that's why we must nuke China! They will doom us all! :drevil:

An excellent and adroit solution with only two flaws.

1. Croatia doesn't have any nukes
2. Croatia doesn't have any nukes

Now I know that technically that's only one flaw but I thought it was such a big one that it was worth mentioning twice.
Last time I checked Britain didn't either. :p

EDIT: Never mind, I checked again.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
And that's why we must nuke China! They will doom us all! :drevil:

An excellent and adroit solution with only two flaws.

1. Croatia doesn't have any nukes
2. Croatia doesn't have any nukes

Now I know that technically that's only one flaw but I thought it was such a big one that it was worth mentioning twice.
Last time I checked Britain didn't either. :p

EDIT: Never mind, I checked again.

:wtf:
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
Quote
Besides, no other county should mess with it's 2,25 million army and the old russian buddies.

Chinese army is about half that size, plus most of its equipment is 1960's-1970's era copies of soviet stuff.


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A cheaper dollar is good for the US to export stuff (ie. crappy TV shows, Pepsi/coca-cola, McDonalds etc ). It's also bad for China because the $5 they earn today is worth less than the $5 a few years ago for the same 'Made in China' product. Oil prices are growing, forcing China to spend more cash on it since they need to import a lot and their demand is growing fast.

Then again all the oil companies are SOE's, plus they have a pretty sizable reserve of dollars to spend. The US doesn't make cheap **** anymore, the living standards in the US are just too high to allow for that.


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Absolutely!  That's why the Chinese would never agree to something along the likes of Kyoto.

Neither would India, Vietnam or some of our other new "friends" in the devloping world. As Mika said, China is a developing country, and so is India.

But to be fair, there have been real attempts to solve the issues of the environment and labor practice. Recently there was a major labor law passed (which the multi-nationals fought tooth and nail to stop), more information about that here (http://www.chinalawblog.com/2007/11/chinas_new_labor_law_its_a_hug.html)

As for the environmental problems, there are actually plenty of rules against dumping and that sort of thing, the problem is that they often are not enforced at the local level. The capital's hold on the country is quite a bit more tenuous than you might believe.

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Besides, even in Europe there is at least a single nation that pushed itself from the agrarian status to developed country in less than 40 years while managing to do some other amazing things at the same time, and by this time I mean the time after WWII officially ended. All without environmental damage.

On the other hand it wasn't nearly on such a massive scale.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
Quote
Neither would India, Vietnam or some of our other new "friends" in the devloping world. As Mika said, China is a developing country, and so is India.

But to be fair, there have been real attempts to solve the issues of the environment and labor practice. Recently there was a major labor law passed (which the multi-nationals fought tooth and nail to stop), more information about that here (http://www.chinalawblog.com/2007/11/chinas_new_labor_law_its_a_hug.html)

As for the environmental problems, there are actually plenty of rules against dumping and that sort of thing, the problem is that they often are not enforced at the local level. The capital's hold on the country is quite a bit more tenuous than you might believe.

I was avoiding the whole developed/undeveloped nations mess because the discussion had so far stuck to China, but you're right - the developing world (for the most part) is not prepared to make sacrifices in industrial progress which have put major advances in quality of life within sight.

Ultimately, I'm on board with my PM on the environment issue - environmental agreements have to be binding, and binding for all members, or they don't matter a damn.
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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
And that's why we must nuke China! They will doom us all! :drevil:

An excellent and adroit solution with only two flaws.

1. Croatia doesn't have any nukes
2. Croatia doesn't have any nukes

Now I know that technically that's only one flaw but I thought it was such a big one that it was worth mentioning twice.
Last time I checked Britain didn't either. :p

EDIT: Never mind, I checked again.

:wtf:
Quote from: Wikipedia
Five are considered to be "nuclear weapons states", an internationally recognized status conferred by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). In order of acquisition of nuclear weapons these are: the United States, Russia (successor state to the Soviet Union), the United Kingdom, France and China.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
Quote
Last time I checked Britain didn't either.

EDIT: Never mind, I checked again.

This has to be funniest thing I saw here for a while! I'm considering making it my new signature. But on the other hand, the old one is more generally applicable.

Here's something about China's current situation regarding fuel:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22832180-25837,00.html

Ah, poor profit-maximizing outsourcing companies just found out their manufacturing costs skyrocketed! While this really was not unexpected, it did happen faster than I thought, and possibly for a different reason than I thought.

There is a difference between "enforced" and what actually happened. Local authorities can also be bribed. Also, what do you think, has this been intentional?
http://www.manufacturing.net/Dow-Contamination-Site-Could-Be-Worst-Ever.aspx?menuid=36

But back to the topic about the hybrid space system that could reach any target on Earth in a matter of minutes, how are they gonna deliver the weapons precisely enough? Dropping something from the height of 120000 ft is quite different from dropping munitions from 15000 ft. Could the current guided munitions be used, if they are launched from a hypersonic vehicle?

Besides, can the current targeting systems even calculate accurate trajectories for dumb iron munitions above Mach 1? Trans-sonic region is probably out of question, I suppose, but is the airflow "constant" enough at higher speeds to make a good prediction? Ah, I just realised that to answer these questions one should probably have a military level security classification, and quite high that kind. So please don't actually bother.

And yes (Kosh is probably on the right track), the industrialization was not of the same scale here, it brought wealth for everyone. In China, the wealth is split to much smaller amount of people, so the beneficial industrialization effects are limited only to a really small fraction of the population. Which is not necessarily a good thing, if you think things like stability. On the other hand, they have a civilized and glorious history of ruling class surviving in conditions like that for hundreds of years. Which is indeed an achievement of itself, if you ask me.

Oh, and it is not Poland or Czech either - both have longer history of being civilized nations.
Sidenote: at this point most of you probably realize that the "civilized" means something else for me than for the rest of you. But nevermind my opinions, I'm just an ogre, a remnanment of the past, who was born in the middle of swamp lands and raised in there, and just recently arrived in the wide new world. Comparing the swamp school definition of "civilized" to the observations, I had to draw conclusions that the way I understood "civilized" was wrong. So don't take my texts too seriously, even though they are fact based. It takes a good reader to notice all the nuances.

Mika
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Offline achtung

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
And that's why we must nuke China! They will doom us all! :drevil:

An excellent and adroit solution with only two flaws.

1. Croatia doesn't have any nukes
2. Croatia doesn't have any nukes

Now I know that technically that's only one flaw but I thought it was such a big one that it was worth mentioning twice.
Last time I checked Britain didn't either. :p

EDIT: Never mind, I checked again.

:wtf:
Quote from: Wikipedia
Five are considered to be "nuclear weapons states", an internationally recognized status conferred by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). In order of acquisition of nuclear weapons these are: the United States, Russia (successor state to the Soviet Union), the United Kingdom, France and China.

I know Britain has nukes.

I'm just :wtf: ing at you not knowing.  I mean, how do you miss a fact like that?
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Offline Flaser

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
There is something strange in the comment regarding the GPS satellites. The requirement of the geostationary orbit requires that the satellites stay above one spot on Earth, and Physics dictates that this can only happen at a given distance, which happens to be approximately 36 000 km. And it must be exactly above the equator of the Earth.

Checked it, oh, it was geosynchrous orbit, so the altitude is relaxed, but I still think the requirement is more related to the actual orbital Physics and remaining time above the target than to get the satellites as far as possible.

I don't know the capabilites of the China's anti-satellite missiles, but given that it was a surprise for the world that they could do it, are we sure we know all about the capabilities of that system? So that there won't be extra surprises? But what you say is probably true, it is hard to reach the satellite at that altitude.

The news about the Chinese submarine can be found here, not sure if it is BS. British people can probably say something about the magazine itself.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

Oh and about guesses of my whereabouts, it is not either Russia (they caused horrific environmental damage) or Switzerland, and lastly it doesn't really matter. It was a simple note that the industrialization can be done quickly, cleanly and efficiently if there is a will and that there are better examples of industrialization times even inside EU.

Lastly I don't know what to think when I hear that the times of wars is over and it will be more like economical competition. Last time such comments were made and believed and due to these reasons it almost ended badly. Be polite but always carry a big stick.

Mika

GPS satelites aren't on GEO orbits, they're in MEO orbits - so no, they're not "fixed" in the sky.
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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
Quote from: MP-Ryan
You've got to be an American college student, right? =)
Naaah, but I do spend a few months there per year.
Quote
The EU has far more in terms of investment opportunity and credibility of reach in global markets in the present day than does the USA.  This trend will only increase.  Your statement about France just tells me you don't really know what you're talking about - Europe is transitioning from a relatively closed rigid society to one which is gradually being forced to accept high rates of immigration and new cultures. Much of the religious extremism in Europe today stems directly from old racial classes spilling over from the imperial era.  Europe needs immigrants (most European nations are well become replacement rate in terms of fertility) and will gradually liberalize their integration system to accept them.  The period today is transitional in nature, but all signs point to eventual stabilization as the last of the old order of Europe disappears with the increasing powers of the EU.  France is largely the main obstacle to this process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_civil_unrest_in_France
2 great riots. Both caused by the police doing their job which is not something spilling from the imperial era. It comes from the fact that immigrants feel they own France, not the French. And when there is civil unrest (caused by a minority) because of police doing their job, it is not a good sign for the future, because the minority is growing and so is the problem.

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As for military opposition, military solutions are terribly one dimensional, particularly in popular American culture today.  Military solutions solve few things, if any (since apprximately 1972, anyway), and as I already pointed out, strategic defeat no longer correlates to tactical defeat.

But it was the Barbarians that conquered the far more civilized and advanced Roman Empire once Rome stopped fighting.
Who cares it was one dimmensional? The Barbarians that became the owners of Europe, or the former Romans that lost everything?

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In short, the lines you just wrote are nothing more than typical conservative one-dimensional thinking regarding the state of the world, and countries thinking that way throughout the next century are going to get a real economic kick in the ass.

The ones that are going to get a kick in the @$$ are those that spend more and more cash on the unemployed instead of giving them the impulse to find a job. War doesn't have much to do about it.

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IMHO, the dominance of military superpowers in the global community ended in 1979.  Economics now paves the way to success or decline in the modern world, a fact that Bush is now learning much too late.

Judging by the fact he's using (actually- overusing) bin Ladens mistake of 9/11 to get the resource needed most for economical growth today, I hate to say that he's learned enough about economics.
And there is no dominance in military without a stronger economy, as proven by the failure of the USSR where tanks were cheap and cars were rare.

Quote from: Mika
Oh, and BengalTiger, that is quite a spot on analysis on EU. The only thing to comment is that EU has a larger population than US and by current estimates it seems to have a larger GDP. This is not surprising, EU is economically strong area, but I'm not sure about the actual manufacturing. If manufacturing is outsourced, the economy tends to go down afterwards.

The US has a smaller unemployment rate (4,4% US vs 7% EU in 2006), smaller % of people working in agriculture (0.9% vs 2.1%), and a larger GDP per capita ($44 000 US vs $29 900 EU), and that's what I based my claim about US > EU on.

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I'm not really a racist, and have met some nice Muslims around, but it is true that the Muslims have a large minority in France and Germany, enough to cause large scale problems. Even here they would prefer to have the Sharia law, instead of the law instituted by this country. My solution would be to kick those people out. No need to enjoy the asylum, freedom of speech, free schooling, financial support or medicine, etc. etc. all provided by that unpreferred law. For me it is either accept and obey or don't come.

Run for president, wherever you live. I fully support the idea of kicking out those guests that feel like they own the place.
I also fully support those who migrate and know how to adapt to wherever they move in.

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Besides, even I can't speak much good about EU, what I know about it is that the system is far too byrocratized, too far away from common people to ever function properly. It will never have a quick response time, nor will there ever be a common consensus of anything. I see it mostly as a huge resource hog, that will take more than it can give. The only positive effects that I can see have been the common currency that is accepted around almost everywhere and the (almost) free mobility around. Which is actually not much different from the time before EU, if you don't count the money thing.

Well the big change in creating the EU is that people and goods can travel freely throughout the Union, and that is a big factor in speeding up the economy. Another thing is that the poorer countries get financial aid which also is a boost, even in terms of the whole EU.
You're also right about the problems.

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Oh, and not all European countries are as pacifistic as mentioned, nor are the people in them. According to my understanding, the inactivity is caused by the vested financial interests. On the other hand, come to think of a campaign planned by French, executed by Italy and Spain... come to think of it, you might see why the EU doesn't do too much militarily...

Well the way I see it, the reason that the EU doesn't go to war that much is the fact that any war they'd fight would be an attack on some minority living in France, Germany or wherever, making a much better reason for riots than criminals dying while running from the cops.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_civil_unrest_in_France
2 great riots. Both caused by the police doing their job which is not something spilling from the imperial era. It comes from the fact that immigrants feel they own France, not the French. And when there is civil unrest (caused by a minority) because of police doing their job, it is not a good sign for the future, because the minority is growing and so is the problem.

Which is a very American point of view on immigration.  A little relativism would do you good.  Unrest during a process of civil change is normal, not a sign of the demise of the nation, as you chould know given your own country's historical (*cough1963-1975cough*).

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But it was the Barbarians that conquered the far more civilized and advanced Roman Empire once Rome stopped fighting.
Who cares it was one dimmensional? The Barbarians that became the owners of Europe, or the former Romans that lost everything?

Fallacious argument.  The politics of 4th century Europe are entirely different from the political, technological, and military environment today.  Sorry, you don't get to use the "history will repeat itself" argument with me in a situation where the history has no comparable basis.

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The ones that are going to get a kick in the @$$ are those that spend more and more cash on the unemployed instead of giving them the impulse to find a job. War doesn't have much to do about it.

Now I KNOW you're a right-wing American.

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Judging by the fact he's using (actually- overusing) bin Ladens mistake of 9/11 to get the resource needed most for economical growth today, I hate to say that he's learned enough about economics.
And there is no dominance in military without a stronger economy, as proven by the failure of the USSR where tanks were cheap and cars were rare.

Dude, if you think the Iraq war is about oil, we're done talking.  Oil is nothing more than a convenient by-product.  The Iraq war was an ill-conceived attempt to bring stability and democracy to the Middle East and simultaneously get rid of an irritating dictator.  It failed brilliantly.  Ultimately, the Iraq war has hurt the US economically, and Iraq really isn't all that oil rich - most US oil comes from Latin America and Canada anyway.

Fallacious argument, again.  You're being very Americentric.  Try a little international perspective.

At any rate, you haven't shown at all why you seem to think that military strength means that other powers won't be able to rise to economic dominance.  Since the 1970s, millitary dominance has not resulted in decisive strategic victory anywhere (including the Gulf War, which was a tactical but not strategic victory).

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Well the way I see it, the reason that the EU doesn't go to war that much is the fact that any war they'd fight would be an attack on some minority living in France, Germany or wherever, making a much better reason for riots than criminals dying while running from the cops.

Wow.  Just ***ing wow.

Ok, I'm done, there's not point arguing with you, it's just going to make me get nasty.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
Considering there was once 2 superpowers, and one collapsed under the weight of it's own economic demand, I find the conversation intriuging.

The phrase 'Barbarian' is taken too literally these days, by the way, after all, Carthage was full of 'Barbarians' from the Roman point of view, and they had a more advanced Maths, Astronomy and Physics knowledge that the Romans did.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 11:02:08 am by Flipside »

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
Quote
The US has a smaller unemployment rate (4,4% US vs 7% EU in 2006), smaller % of people working in agriculture (0.9% vs 2.1%), and a larger GDP per capita ($44 000 US vs $29 900 EU), and that's what I based my claim about US > EU on.

On the other hand the American economy is horribly over-inflated by massive debt spending.
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knew that he was not asking me, as I am really clueless about most things, and thus have no freaking idea at all. But he hints at it when he says that "subprime mortgages are changing hands at 25 cents on the dollar", and this means that the subprime loss alone "is not $150 billion, but more like $1.6 trillion", and "if all AAA and Alt-A mortgage portfolios were to be marked to market, the loss would amount to another $2 trillion." Yikes!

That's one quarter of the entire GDP.

Read all about it
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/IK30Dj03.html

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Dude, if you think the Iraq war is about oil, we're done talking.  Oil is nothing more than a convenient by-product.  The Iraq war was an ill-conceived attempt to bring stability and democracy to the Middle East and simultaneously get rid of an irritating dictator.

The entire point of democratizing Iraq was to get rid of an anti-american dictator and replace it with a pro-american democratic government, this way the oil sanctions can be lifted and production could increase and we all would be happy. But it backfired hugely.

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But it was the Barbarians that conquered the far more civilized and advanced Roman Empire once Rome stopped fighting.

Wrong. There were many reasons why Rome collapsed, but actually fighting too much was certainly one of them. A massive economic collapse the century before that also weakened it pretty significantly.

Considering that Europe is still 90+% ethnic european, some unrest can be expected during times of change.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
Quote
But it was the Barbarians that conquered the far more civilized and advanced Roman Empire once Rome stopped fighting.

Wrong. There were many reasons why Rome collapsed, but actually fighting too much was certainly one of them. A massive economic collapse the century before that also weakened it pretty significantly.

I thought Rome fell because it was ruled by psychopaths that had ridiculous eating disorders.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
Quote
But it was the Barbarians that conquered the far more civilized and advanced Roman Empire once Rome stopped fighting.

Wrong. There were many reasons why Rome collapsed, but actually fighting too much was certainly one of them. A massive economic collapse the century before that also weakened it pretty significantly.

I thought Rome fell because it was ruled by psychopaths that had ridiculous eating disorders.
And drank from lead cups.
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Re: Further development of space-based weapons
1.
Quote from: MP-Ryan
Dude, if you think the Iraq war is about oil, we're done talking.  Oil is nothing more than a convenient by-product.
Look 30 years from now- oil will be for the price of gold by then, and China will probably not be developed enough to exist without it. Without US influence in the Middle East, Iraq and Iran would be sitting there, waiting for the Chinese to come and conquer the oil supplies. And since there are Americans in Iraq, and probably will be in Iran, China suffered a big blow in terms of energy supplies, decades before anyone could feel it.

2. I'm not only a citizen of the US. And I don't study there, I'm there only for my summer vacation.

3.
Quote from: MP-Ryan
At any rate, you haven't shown at all why you seem to think that military strength means that other powers won't be able to rise to economic dominance.  Since the 1970s, millitary dominance has not resulted in decisive strategic victory anywhere (including the Gulf War, which was a tactical but not strategic victory).
You're right here, but that's mostly because there was no great war since then (less the Cold one, which was in fact fought only economically).

4. As for Rome...
Quote from: Wikipedia
The military historian Vegetius theorized, and has recently been supported by the historian Arthur Ferrill, that the Roman Empire – particularly the military – declined partially as a result of an influx of Germanic mercenaries into the ranks of the legions. This "Germanization" and the resultant cultural dilution or "barbarization", led to lethargy, complacency and loyalty to the Roman commanders among the legions and a surge in decadence amongst Roman citizenry.
...
Edward Gibbon famously placed the blame on a loss of civic virtue among the Roman citizens. They gradually entrusted the role of defending the Empire to barbarian mercenaries who eventually turned on them.
Which means that fighting was so unpopular that the Romans had mercenaries do it for them, which proves that pacifism, rather than too much warfare was one of the reasons Rome got defeated.
The cultural 'barbarisation' was a direct effect of what we today call 'multiculturism' (inviting a whole bunch of immigrants without having them adapt to their new home), and it was another reason why Rome fell apart.
History doesn't repeat itself because of technology or weapons. It's mentality of the involved people that matters.

5.
The phrase 'Barbarian' is taken too literally these days, by the way, after all, Carthage was full of 'Barbarians' from the Roman point of view, and they had a more advanced Maths, Astronomy and Physics knowledge that the Romans did.
I was thinking of the Goths and Vandals.

6.
Quote from: Kosh
Considering that Europe is still 90+% ethnic european, some unrest can be expected during times of change.
In 2005 the EU had an overall net gain from immigration of 1.8 million people, despite having one of the highest population densities in the world. This accounted for almost 85% of Europe's total population growth. Sounds alarming, doesn't it?
'Teeth of the Tiger' - campaign in the making
Story, Ships, Weapons, Project Leader.