Author Topic: Creationist plagarism  (Read 5469 times)

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Why are we bigging up G0atmaster. He is still a Creationist, isnt he?

 

Offline karajorma

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He's entitled to believe in whatever he wants. I'm simply making the point that if he dislikes other people presenting his religion in a bad light then maybe he should do something about it.

That said based on what he's said earlier he's not a Young Earth Creationist so he should agree that the Discovery Institute are full of ****.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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...and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.


Am I the only one that finds this quote almost incredibly hilarious? :lol:

Especially considering the context with Kent Hovind...
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Offline vyper

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Wasn't Matthew a tax man anyway?
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Offline achtung

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Wasn't Matthew a tax man anyway?
Yeah, a Jewish tax collector working for the Roman governors.
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I believe in ID.  I don't believe Christ condones plagiarism.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 
That said based on what he's said earlier he's not a Young Earth Creationist so he should agree that the Discovery Institute are full of ****.

I dont see how that follows. Just because you support Intelligent Design doesnt mean you support YEC. There are many things in between YEC and ID. What does follow is that if you dont accept YEC or OEC chances are you dont accept ID either.

 

Offline karajorma

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Fair enough, point proved. I was giving his earlier claims about science far too much credence. Won't happen again. :p
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Fair enough, point proved. I was giving his earlier claims about science far too much credence. Won't happen again. :p

Thats 'kay.  :) What was his earlier claim?

 
I'm too apathetic to make up my mind on what I believe as far as OEC or YEC.  I go with what the Bible says, and it leaves that open to much interpretation on that point, so I take it as being one which is rather pointless to struggle over.  It doesn't change who I am, it doesn't determine whether or not God loves me.

Yes, Matthew was a tax man before he was a disciple.  The thing about tax collectors in those days was they basically made a living swindling people.  They charged the people a much higher tax than the government at the time called for, and kept the difference for themselves.  They'd charge a person, say, a 40% tax, when Caesar demanded a 10% tax.  They'd give the 10% to Caesar, and keep the rest.  They were despised by just about everyone alive then, Romans and Jews a like.

What it means, in non-churchy terms, is treat the person as if they weren't Christian if they don't turn from their sin when they're being confronted on it by a whole congregation of people.


Oh, and Kara, what does ID have to do about my earlier claims about believing in science?  Last time I checked, 99% of the facts of the universe were still open to theory.  My theory is that it's all far too complex to have happened by accident.  Is that really so far-flung from the realm of possibility?
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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I don't see much of telling these generalizing people that not all Christians agree. It seems like if someone has already decided to go the route of assuming that all Christians think the same, they're not going to be convinced by one or two Christians claiming they 'disagree'. They could always rationalize that as them lying to save their reputation.

Besides which, I don't think that a Christian needs to explain himself to someone who's already decided that all Christians are lawbreakers any more than an atheist needs to explain himself to someone who's decided that all atheists are babykillers.

Negative assumptions do not grant you a special right to make other people explain themselves.

No they don't but if you're saying you hate those negative assumptions then maybe you should do something about it.

That's exactly what I'm doing here, isn't it? I can't go to each individual person on a case-by-case basis and refute every single misconception they have. I can, however, convince other people that those people should be held accountable for their generalizations. Slander and libel are really only dangerous if people accept it and don't think for themselves. If people think "Wait, he hasn't got any evidence to back that up", they've made the first step to realizing that the first person is, in fact, full of it.

In case you didn't notice the first person to make any comment about these people giving Christians a bad name was GOatmaster himself. If he dislikes that Christians get a bad name cause of these idiots then his choices consist of sitting there annoyed about it or getting up and doing something about it.

If he wants to do the former then that's his choice but if some minority was giving FS2 players, or British people or atheists or any other group who I was a member of a bad reputation you can bet I'd point out that they were dickheads who didn't represent me.

Or he could simply ignore it and move on. The Discovery Institute's ability to disseminate ID is aided by public attention. If the DI can turn things into a 'public attack on Christianity' because it's getting trash-talked by a bunch of people online, it'll just help it gain sympathy and support. If, on the other hand, it's simply handed a lawsuit by Harvard, it's nothing but a case of copyright infringement and plagiarism.

They could never have done that if the majority of the Christians in the country had simply said "Shut up, you're talking bollocks" but that isn't what happened. The vast majority of Christians said nothing. It was left to the atheists and a small percentage of vocal Christians to say that ID was bull****. The fact that the majority of Christians didn't say anything allowed the Discovery Institute and their friends to present the whole thing as an assault on Christianity instead of what it actually was, an attempt to try to bring religion into science classes via the back door.

No, it's the people who believed them who are at fault. They made the assumption that the DI represented the majority of Christians, and they were wrong. (EDIT: Though if the DI actually did claim to represent the majority of Christians, I'd say that they were at fault, for outright lying.)

So this isn't a simple case of Christians unfairly getting a bad name due to the actions of a few. They are getting a bad name due to their own inaction. And that bad name may be deserved. We'll never know now just how many Christians were quiet because they believed in ID and how many were quiet simply because they couldn't be arsed. I tend to feel that the majority were actually of the latter group but while the majority say nothing we'll never know.

All that kind of argument does is benefit the DI, because they can claim a greater association with those Christians. It also helps them stir up action from those Christians, because now they've got a bunch of people criticizing not just the DI, but those Christians who have done nothing but stay out of it. So instead of getting Christians to stand up for you because they've come to an educated decision, you're more likely to get them to come back with a knee-jerk defensive reaction.

You can't force people to care. If you think you can, I'd suggest you talk to politicians - they've had centuries of experience at trying to do just that. But even they haven't been able to get much voter turnout most of the time.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 04:02:33 pm by WMCoolmon »
-C

 

Offline karajorma

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If pretty much every poll asked of middle America didn't show ID having mass support you might have a point. But that's the thing, it does have a lot of support.

This isn't something like the Flat Earth Society which will simply go away because it is ignored.
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DI=Discovery Institute ID=Intelligent Design.

Make sure you've got your abbreviations correct there, Kara.

Like I said, my point wasn't that Christians aren't represented by ID, but that Christians aren't represented by DI, or rather their act of plagerism.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 

Offline karajorma

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I have my abbreviations correct. The DI are the leading proponents of ID.
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Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 

Offline karajorma

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The bible is the leading proponent of creationism. ID doesn't make any claims what the designer is (or so they say). It could just as easily be aliens, Rama or Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Yet again I suspect I'm dealing with yet another person who claims to believe in ID but doesn't actually know what it is.
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ID is a component of Creationism, hence the "Creation" part of the name.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 

Offline karajorma

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Don't kid yourself. Creationism requires deities. ID does not.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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If pretty much every poll asked of middle America didn't show ID having mass support you might have a point. But that's the thing, it does have a lot of support.

This isn't something like the Flat Earth Society which will simply go away because it is ignored.

So all this time that you've been claiming that GOatmaster and Christians need to speak out against their unfair reputation - you actually believe that it's the other way around, and that their views are pretty popular, and that there is 'mass support' for them?

I'm a little confused.
-C

 

Offline karajorma

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Basically I believe the reputation is well deserved. But if he feels otherwise he should prove it.

I'd be quite happy if the majority of America stood up tomorrow and said that ID was bull****. Won't happen, but I'd be happy if it did.
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