Author Topic: Moving to Europe...  (Read 8839 times)

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Offline vyper

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Spain?  :pimp: we need your money...  :lol:  :p . He he.

Now, seriously, here in Canary Islands we've a good weather. Low crime. I think  :nervous:

Tell me you live in Tenerife :nervous:
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Offline Black Wolf

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There's really only one choice.

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
It's the country for me.

You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan,
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
 You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.

Finland has it all.
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Offline Janos

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how about moldova
lol wtf

 

Offline Mika

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Black Wolf:
Buahahaha! That was a good call!

Actually, there are two reasons why I would advise against coming here. First one is that Stealth could meet me in person. The second one is that Bachelor degree is not really a good call in Scandinavia, albeit the seven year work experience might help. The degree didn't exist here before EU, and very few people leave their studies at Bachelor level. So the minimal requirement is Master's degree, even though EU says B.Sc is a valid grade. The other certificates I'am not familiar with, and I would suppose that the people working in the computer side are not either.

And now for something completely different:
----------------------------------------------
Finland itself in Finnish is a derivation of old word, which would mean "Swamp land" in English - do your own conclusions about that. The country does not have historical sights or buildings, and when there is a museum, no Finn wants to visit them. This is due to the fact most of the Finns are still familiar with the stuff  represented in museums. Also, the general comment about anything historical or famous is of the lines "We looked for all the sights from the map and passed them as far away as possible". Most of the old architecture has been either destroyed, burned or otherwise removed, and most of the people would prefer it to stay that way, as nobody wants costly, ugly, old, worn-out monuments as a first sight when looking through the window in the morning. Southern Finland, however, differs at this part.

Of the overall culture, Finns are quiet. This is simply because small talk is not used in Finland, i.e. if you ask someone asks a Finn how do you do, they will reply with their current health status, usually something you are not interested in hearing, or would wish you wouldn't know. The lack of small talk is the result of expressing oneself coherently, and honestly, without the need of adding unnecessary words like "would you kindly" or "please" in it. Also, using "sir" or "madam" with a Finn is an insult, unless the Finn is a very old person. This is because no Finn wants to be labelled as a superior - on the other words all Finns are equal. According to Central Europeans, this is a sign of an uncivilized culture and society.

But, every foreigner has to adapt to this, starting from the Finnair flight to Finland, in which the stewardess can easily ask "Whaddya want?" without any words that would hint that she is serving you. And actually she is not serving you, but helping you. So anyone coming here should be able to deal with this. Of course, the make up for this is whenever you need help, you will most certainly get it. At this point it might be good to mention that the Finnish culture itself is very resistant against corruption, to the point that it is not possible to bribe the police - which is also something that often buzzes the visitors arriving from the East. Again a trait that is not attributed to a civilized society.

The usage of alcohol is encouraged by the general population, and it is not a shame to walk home while making a perfect sinusoidal wave during the hole trip, or throwing up some of the precious stuff that gave you the feeling. Fooling around drunken is also tolerated to some degree, but is also an easy way to get your ass kicked. Most Finns feel that it is good that you can unwind time by time as long as you control the alcohol consumption - and here the meaning of control is negotiable.

Also, should you find the thought of having a sauna session with several naked men (if you are a man) or several naked women (if you are woman) difficult, you'll have difficulties surviving here. Foreign men tend to find it difficult to get in to sauna with Finnish women, and vice versa. This is because the heat experience in the sauna is usually too much to people coming from the warm countries. Even if the Finnish women are throwing the water, it is usually far too much to any foreign people. And the catch is, one cannot really make friends with Finns without going to sauna.

The EU has been doing good job to protect the wildlife in Finland, and you might get a chance to witness the eating habits of wolves or bears from close quarters. Hunting is popular here, and foreigners can be taken to hunting trips, if they are smart enough to ask locals about it. Also anyone can walk in the forests of Finland, without asking permissions to do so. There are of course things that you cannot do there, like setting up a fire or using a snowscooter. But with the permission of the landowner, these can also be done. In the similar lines, Finns usually do not use fences around their houses because there is space, the only exception for that is inside city, and even there the fence is rather questionable. This kind of openness about one's property is again a sign of uncivilization, according to Central European observers. I trust their comments to be true.

Food in Finland is considered bad tasting by many foreign observers - Finnish cookery could be called making food without using any spice. Almost all Finnish food is done that way, and because our grandfathers and fathers found it nourishable and good, so do we goddamnit. Good tasting food itself means less in Finland, because eating doesn't have such cultural meanings as in other European countries. The cookery in Finland is basically optimization of cooking time and taste. On the other hand, one can be pretty sure that Finnish food will not cause any complications due to the high hygienic standards used everywhere in the country. The clarity, purity and clean are good traits in Finland and due to this reason the nature is well preserved, water being crystal clear in most locations. Also, a high personal hygienical standard is uphold everywhere, so one cannot cover the stink with deodorant!

The education is basically free inside Finland, while health care costs are kept at reasonable level. High taxes are needed to achieve this. The average income is about 2500 €/month, after taxes the result is about 1700 €/month. The average housing price varies greatly along the North-South line, South being the most expensive. In geographical center of Finland, and average house costs around 70000 € in rural areas and about 200000 € in cities, albeit this would then be a new house.

Many Americans find it difficult to adjust to Finnish culture, where nobody makes a fuzz about what they have done, and anyone - especially foreigner - trying to do so most usually gets laughed out of situation. This is because Finns have a long history of doing exactly what they say, and this can be crosschecked from the history books. If you wanna know about it, go read it, we ain't gonna tell you since we pretty much know already. So it is up to you to prove you are actually up to point. So less talking and more action.

So along the lines of Perihelion's old signature:

Like we would want to see foreigners here!
(National Sarcastic Society of Finland)
----------------------------

Mika
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Offline Jeff Vader

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Indeed. That was the first thing that stood out from Black Wolf's post. Not a single word about the binge drinking culture we have here. It makes such a difference. If you compare Finland with, say, Sweden. In Sweden, if a man has a hard time with work or anything, he'll go talk to his fellow man. They'll talk it all over, possibly crying and hugging. If a Finnish man has a hard time, he'll just keep it to himself, then go drinking and will most likely get involved in some violent incident, ending up in jail for at least one night.
23:40 < achillion > EveningTea: ass
23:40 < achillion > wait no
23:40 < achillion > evilbagel: ass
23:40 < EveningTea > ?
23:40 < achillion > 2-letter tab complete failure

14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
14:08 < achillion > Let's talk about politics instead
14:08 <@The_E > butts and dongs are part of #hard-light's brand now
14:08 <@The_E > well
14:08 <@The_E > EvilBagel's brand, at least

01:06 < T-Rog > welp
01:07 < T-Rog > I've got to take some very strong antibiotics
01:07 < achillion > penis infection?
01:08 < T-Rog > Chlamydia
01:08 < achillion > O.o
01:09 < achillion > well
01:09 < achillion > I guess that happens
01:09 < T-Rog > at least it's curable
01:09 < achillion > yeah
01:10 < T-Rog > I take it you weren't actually expecting it to be a penis infection
01:10 < achillion > I was not

14:04 < achillion > Sometimes the way to simplify is to just have a habit and not think about it too much
14:05 < achillion > until stuff explodes
14:05 < achillion > then you start thinking about it

22:16 < T-Rog > I don't know how my gf would feel about Jewish conspiracy porn

15:41 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
15:47 < EvilBagel> butt
15:51 < Achillion> yes
15:53 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

18:53 < Achillion> Dicks are fun

21:41 < MatthTheGeek> you can't spell assassin without two asses

20:05 < sigtau> i'm mining titcoins from now on

00:31 < oldlaptop> Drunken antisocial educated freezing hicks with good Internet == Finland stereotype

11:46 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
11:50 < achtung> Surely you've heard of DVDA
11:50 < achtung> Double Vaginal Double ANal
11:51 < Kobrar> ...
11:51 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has left #hard-light []

 

Offline Wobble73

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Finland itself in Finnish is a derivation of old word, which would mean "Swamp land" in English - do your own conclusions about that.

The conclusion I draw from that is Finland derives from the English,  fen land a fen being a swamp or bog!

And Black Wolf's post was a song by the ever great Monty Python and thus was a joke!  :P

*Edit* Google ads for this thread at the moment is advertising property in Turkey! Howabout that for a suggestion?
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Offline Dysko

I spent the summer living in Rome.  Amazing city, full of life, great food, beautiful men-hating women, and a great public transit system.  Housing prices are absolutely astronomical there, unfortunately.
:wtf:
Ok, maybe what I'm going to say is influenced by the fact that I live near Milan, and people from Northern Italy are usually thought to hate Southern Italy (and vice-versa), but this is my experience with public transit when I went to Rome on a school trip:
-Subways and buses always late and extremely over-crowded (also Milan subways are over-crowded, but Rome subways were... over-over-crowded :blah: )
-On the last day of the school trip, when we had to return to our train, we arrived at the bus stop and discovered the bus had broken doors and couldn't depart. Instead of sendind a replacement bus, we had to wait the next bus (half an hour). When we were 2 kms from our hotel, the doors of our bus stuck in closed position, so, after emergency opening, we had to wait another bus. As soon as we got on the other bus, the gearbox broke. We did the last 2 kms on foot. Fortunately, Italian trains are always late so we didn't miss our train.

BTW Stealth, I can only tell you to avoid Italy at all. Prices (not only housing prices, like fsphiladelphia said) are always astronomical. Public transit sucks (last friday there has been a public transport drivers strike: I was blocked at the uni for all the day :blah: ). Streets are always jammed. Crime rate is quite high. Justice is strange here (some time ago, a Romanian driver ran over 4 people while he was drunk, killing them. Now he is spending 6 years of "jail" in a luxury hotel near the sea, and he has been given 40000 € to make publicity for jeans and watches :doubt: ). Bureaucracy times and costs are extremely long and high.
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Spain?  :pimp: we need your money...  :lol:  :p . He he.

Now, seriously, here in Canary Islands we've a good weather. Low crime. I think  :nervous:

Tell me you live in Tenerife :nervous:

Nope. La Palma. #cough# :nervous:. But i lived in Tenerife two years. And there is a girl there :(. I miss her. #snif#.
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Offline karajorma

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Streets are always jammed.

I remember reading this long ago. Tell me if you think it's accurate.

Quote
Italians are rightly proud of their reputation as the worst drivers in the world. Italian drivers regard having all four wheels on the ground at the same times as being the height of Anglo-Saxon frigidity. It is a point of honour that the shortest drive down to the shops should include reversing at speed through a pedestrian precinct, losing both wing mirrors while accelerating between a police van and an oncoming lorry, and rolling the car sideways down a long flight of stairs through a party of nuns.

Parkingat the end of a car journey is looked upon by Italians as being similar to the last act of an opera; not complete without a lot of high pitched screaming and multiple deaths.

DON'T FORGET: The average Italian believes that more progress is to be made through the use of the horn than the gearbox
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Offline Windrunner

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well i guess i would be promoting sweden here

Women here are HOT, there is a lot of jobs here but the sallary is not good as in denmark or norway. There is alot of things to do here, but that depends on what you are intrested in.
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Offline Stealth

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Women here are HOT,

prove it.  pictures or it didnt happen.

  

Offline Mobius

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I spent the summer living in Rome.  Amazing city, full of life, great food, beautiful men-hating women, and a great public transit system.  Housing prices are absolutely astronomical there, unfortunately.
:wtf:
Ok, maybe what I'm going to say is influenced by the fact that I live near Milan, and people from Northern Italy are usually thought to hate Southern Italy (and vice-versa), but this is my experience with public transit when I went to Rome on a school trip:

I don't know how you can consider Rome a city of the South. It's in the middle! You hate Rome because you consider Milan the true capital :P

BTW Stealth, I can only tell you to avoid Italy at all. Prices (not only housing prices, like fsphiladelphia said) are always astronomical. Public transit sucks (last friday there has been a public transport drivers strike: I was blocked at the uni for all the day :blah: ). Streets are always jammed. Crime rate is quite high. Justice is strange here (some time ago, a Romanian driver ran over 4 people while he was drunk, killing them. Now he is spending 6 years of "jail" in a luxury hotel near the sea, and he has been given 40000 € to make publicity for jeans and watches :doubt: ). Bureaucracy times and costs are extremely long and high.

You're generalizing. I know that living in Milan isn't easy because of the astronomical prices, but it doesn't mean that prices are high everywhere. One of my classmates easily bought a house near the University she wants to attend, something like this would be impossible in Milan.

Streets are always jammed? You're generalizing, again. Milan and Rome are overcrowded, I know, so the streets are jammed. It doesn't mean that all cities in Italy are like Rome and Milan. In the town where my mother comes from, for example, there virtually is no traffic. You see a car every 5 or so minutes.

Crime rate is quite high? Another wrong statement. Other countries, like the UK, have much higher crime rates. When talking to English people I always hear of gangs and stuff like that. One of my relatives visited London and amazingly noticed a worrying crime rate. In my town there has been just one gang(dispatched in a matter of weeks).

Mafia? It's something separate. Here you can walk without having the risk of meeting gangs. Ndrangheta(which is much more powerful than Mafia, IMO) has other things to do, it doesn't care about people walking on the streets. Under this point of view, Southern Italy is much better...people are safe and feel safe.

Justice here is strange because is controlled by Ndrangheta, Mafia, Sacra Corona Unita, Cosa Nostra, Camorra and the other criminal organizations(when they have to cover their operations).

Bureaucracy times are long but the costs are under control. There are so many lawyers here so there's the tendence to lower the prices. Same thing for doctors and engineers.

There are differences between us and the others. Local dialects, though similar to Italian, have been strongly influenced by Latin, Greek, Spanish and Turkish while dialects of the North have been influenced by French. The culture is different, you will never see homosexuals here(there must be some, but they surely don't let the others know it) and people behave well with visitors(due to the Greek tradition, that's probably why I welcome newbies).

Oh, and the weather is just fantastic.


I remember reading this long ago. Tell me if you think it's accurate.

Quote
Italians are rightly proud of their reputation as the worst drivers in the world. Italian drivers regard having all four wheels on the ground at the same times as being the height of Anglo-Saxon frigidity. It is a point of honour that the shortest drive down to the shops should include reversing at speed through a pedestrian precinct, losing both wing mirrors while accelerating between a police van and an oncoming lorry, and rolling the car sideways down a long flight of stairs through a party of nuns.

Parkingat the end of a car journey is looked upon by Italians as being similar to the last act of an opera; not complete without a lot of high pitched screaming and multiple deaths.

DON'T FORGET: The average Italian believes that more progress is to be made through the use of the horn than the gearbox

I assume it comes straight from an English site or magazine. They always have something bad to say about us. They always criticize us and our government. I would like to see some Italian magazines replying to such pathetic statements.

They have been criticizing us during this summer, probably because of the Formula One Championship. A few years ago a guy wrote a book called "The Dark Side of Italy" or something similar. I read a "counter-article" in a magazine and noticed how ***** that book is. Wrong translations made certain aspects of Italy look weird and wrong statements made us look like animals....without considering all the parts that emphasize the stereotype of the Italian working for Mafia. The best word to describe it is bull****.

I want to know the reasons behind this kind of attention. Why do they focus their attention on us? Maybe because our magazines don't reply to unacceptable offenses? Please note that my opinion is not intended as an offense, I have a high consideration of English members of this community and the UK in general. The problem is that articles like that make me feel terribly offended. I'd like your introduction to the article that leads me to think that you don't trust it completely. I find it a good thing.  :)

Back On Topic, I don't think that extract is correct. As far as I know, we're not proud to be the "worst drivers in the world". All people I know drive admirably without turning Italian streets into GP tracks. There are bad drivers, of course, but it's not the case to put everyone to the same level.
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Offline Shade

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Quote
the sallary is not good as in denmark or norway
On the other hand, the state doesn't take quite as much of it away either - I think Denmark pretty much holds the world record for taxes. There's an interesting trend going on between Copenhagen and Malmö, in fact: The Danes are running away from the taxes, and the Swedes are running towards the higher pay. Give it 100 years and the two cities will have switched populations entirely :p

Anyway, I'm actually of two minds about pimping Denmark here. On the one hand, I'm damn proud of my country (and, in my obviously biased opinion, rightfully so), but on the other hand I'm utterly ashamed of some of the politicians that we, the people, have somehow chosen to lead us, and there are also some rather unpleasent facts of life for people who are not used to how things work here. So I guess I'll just stats the facts as well as I can, given the bias that I obviously have on the issue.

About the people in charge: It's not the government as such, they are fairly harmless in that they seem more or less incapable of independant action (they just follow Bush or whoever else is in fashion at the time), it's the party they rely on to stay in power that's the problem. A party which I would personally class as something of a cross between Nazis and Ku Klux Clan with a sprinkling of old-fashioned values on top to make them appeal to gullible old folk. Bottom line is they are positively phobic about any colour besides white-ish pink, any kind of immigration (even by white-ish pink people), and any kind of religion besides lutheran christianity. Several of them have in the past been convicted of racism, and there was a spat a few years back when it was uncovered that they had knowingly and gladly accepted proclaimed nazis into their ranks. Obviously once the secret was out and there was a risk that the gullible old folk they rely on for votes would be offended, the people in question were excluded, but that doesn't change the fact that they were happy to have them in the first place.

So anyway, that's the bad. Them and the taxes. And the weather, which likes to pretend someone is doing a too-good impression of a rain dance more often than I'd like. Also, houses and cars are ludicrously expensive compared to most other countries, though housing prices are currently trending downwards. Anyone moving here from a non-scandinavian country will most likely be appaled by the taxes and the high prices, at least at first.

Another bad is that as a non-EU citizen, one can't simply move here and start working. One needs a work permit, and thanks to the efforts of the aforementioned nationalistic party, that is a non-trivial task. And not really one I know much about how to accomplish, I'm afraid. I do know that it has gotten a bit easier lately as the lack of skilled labour started to take its toll on the economy, so it may be less of a hurdle now than last time I heard about it.

On the good side, we have the standard Scandinavian package of free healthcare and education, a strong social security network, excellent communications with lots of competition in both phone and internet markets, plenty of good-looking blonde women (I can vouch for the Swedes on this, too), considerable personal freedoms, and general lack of offense at stuff like swearing and nudity (yes, I most definitely consider that a good thing ;)). On top of that, we have an unemployment rate which is effectively zero, especially in the IT sector, meaning that as long as you can manage "Hello, World!" or set up a basic network then somebody probably wants to employ you. Wages are also rather high, though I suspect not quite up to US standards for IT jobs; getting there, though, as the lack of people to employ means there's practically a war going on for the services of the best and brightest.

As for the country itself, crime is very low, police are fairly effective and very uncorruptable, local governance actually works as intended and in rare cases might even be called efficient, public transportation for the most part is excellent, and roads during rush hour are practically empty compared to american-style gridlocks - Even in the larger cities (which aren't that large by US standards). Denmark is also arguably a beautiful country, all lowland with rolling hills sporting fields and the occasional forest once you get out into the country. Think the Shire, minus the hobbits and subterranean dwellings. We also have a few areas of rather more dramatic terrain, but nothing remotely approaching true mountains or vast forests - For that, though, Sweden is 15 minutes away by car coming from Copenhagen. Beaches are also excellent, though the water is quite cold compared to, say, California, even during late summer when it's at its warmest. People around here are generally friendly and helpful, as long as you avoid the older generations, many of whom tend to be rather less tolerant of, well, of anything and anyone, really.

Finally, one huge advantage I find with living here is that we're sort of in the middle of everything: By air, Berlin is 1.5 hours south, London is 2 hours west, Stockholm is 2 hours north-east, Olso is 1.5 hours north, Paris is 2 hours south-west - And all those are rather cheap fares, too.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 02:03:58 pm by Shade »
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Offline karajorma

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I assume it comes straight from an English site or magazine. They always have something bad to say about us. They always criticize us and our government. I would like to see some Italian magazines replying to such pathetic statements.

Actually the column it was from is far worse about the English. :p
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Offline Mobius

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Actually the column it was from is far worse about the English. :p

So...does it come from an American magazine/site? :P
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Offline karajorma

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Why? Is it so hard to believe that the British have a sense of humour about ourselves? :D


Actually Stealth that is one advantage of living in the UK. After a year or so you'll finally get British comedy (assuming you don't already).
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Offline JGZinv

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I don't suppose anyone's thought to mention the fact you could move to
Alaska or Hawaii with less trouble and it would be both a change of scenery
and of climate, not to mention people.
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Offline Roanoke

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I fancy either Canada or Australia myself.

 

Offline Mobius

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Why? Is it so hard to believe that the British have a sense of humour about ourselves? :D


Actually Stealth that is one advantage of living in the UK. After a year or so you'll finally get British comedy (assuming you don't already).

We also make jokes about Italy. You should already know Dysko's "The asteroid is breaking apart, Command! It must be a FIAT!", but we joke without offending...
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