[Jeff Vader]

Hmm. No particular reason to think this, but has anyone considered that the Hallfight Shivans might be a specialized marine caste, a security system, or even biomechanical servitors - rather than actual Shivans?

Didn't state that the creatures we saw in Hallfight were actual Shivans? Meaning that they can't be just servants or 'security systems'. Who knows whether they have some caste system, but at least those things were some form of Shivans.

[TrashMan]

Tehy did. The Hallfight shivans ARE the real shivans.

[Dark Hunter]

Whether they were using some kind of suit is another question though. I don't know if the quote clarifies that the Hallfighters are actual un-suited Shivans or not? The FSRefBible states that the Shivans are capable of extended survival in vacuum, but was that eventually written out?

[TrashMan]

"Shivans have multiple eyes, some of which seem to have the function of compound eyes, not unlike some varieties of insects. Shivans also have five legs, and can run equally well over a floor or over a ceiling. It has been hypothesized that Shivans may have spent their evolutionary process in a zero-gravity environment. Each Shivan leg ends in a very strong claw, capable of crushing even the sturdiest of known alloys. Parts of their thorax seem to act as compartments, such as ones that might be found on a space suit. It has been suggested that what we have actually seen have been either robots or organic creatures in some sort of exo-skeleton. However, we have, at present, no reason to support either hypothesis.

Their insect like carapace does not appear original to the creature's physiology, suggesting the Shivans are a cybernetic fusion of biology and technology. The integrated plasma weapon also exhibits properties of an organic artificial fusion. The weapon may be a kind of focusing device powered by the energy of the being itself, though this point is the subject of heated controversy. These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity. Only a handful of Shivans have ever been captured, and all research on live specimens ended with the GTI's Hades Rebellion in 2336. The results of these studies remain highly classified."

[karajorma]

Hallf ight showed us actual Shivans. Volition quite famously said that flat out.

Now whether there are other castes is another matter.

[spartan_0214]

The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry.

K, maybe. The way I understood it originally was that the Terrans and Vasudans studied the shield technology and then started modifying the weapons to make them more effective against Shivan shields. And do remember that they didn't have GTVA back then. Only GTA and PVN.

Actually, as I recall, the Vasudans worked with the Terran scientists to develop the technology. The GTVA was a spur-of-the-moment alliance that, after the Lucifer was destroyed, became a little more solidified.

As was already stated, the Lucifer was beaten because 1) it's shield, like the shields of any ship, went down in subspace and 2) because the bombers of the attack group took out the Lucifer's reactors, which lead to some cataclysmic reaction, effectively blowing the ship up.

Yes, but it was the invulnerable shields that kept us from destroying the Lucy. I don't recall the actual Hit Point count, but I know that Shivan ships have typically weak hulls. It wouldn't be a leap by any means to say that the Lucifer had a weak hull (how'd we even hit the reactors if the hull wasn't weak), seeing as its shield would suffice. We didn't even have Beam technology, and it was merely bombers that destroyed it, not capships as I recall.

[Goober5000]

I've said it before, but it bears a bit of modification.

The Shivans are, very clearly, used to being the aggressors, and they are good at it. They have an excellent grasp of how to use their superior mobility (advanced subspace technologies) to best effect. They understand how to properly exploit shock effect, confusion, and hampered enemy reactions. At the strategic level, the Shivans are quite capable practioners of manuver warfare; the only thing they really seem to lack is a systematic effort to disrupt enemy command, control, and communications. (Or possibly the understanding of Terrans and Vasudans to make such an effort.)

At the tactical level, however, the Shivans are very different. They fight with great ferocity, and are rigorous in their pursuits, but they solve problems by pouring resources on them and use sledgehammers to smash flies. There is little finesse to Shivan operations, and it shows. Their saving grace is that they can afford to do these things, because their opponents often do not have the resources available to exploit their weaknesses.

One could make an excellent parallel with the Soviet Union's army; they had excellent strategic knowledge, and produced some very fine operational- and strategic-level commanders, but at a tactical level they mostly had to resort to blunt force trauma because that was what they could reliably deliever at that level.

The main Shivan advantage, however, is summed up by a quote from Clauswitz. The offence "is complete within itself." The Shivans are pure attackers. You cannot tie them down and force them to defend something. The only targets of real value are their warships themselves. We know the Shivans have logistical targets, cargo craft and cargo depots, but we have never seen a factory. Defeating the Shivans forces one to adopt the most ancient and inefficent method of defeating someone: you have to kill them all. No other method of destroying their warmaking capacity will avail, because those require you to be able to deprive them of the tools or the will to fight. The Shivans are almost without exception xenocidal, and the GTVA has no means of cutting them off from their supplies because these have no apparent source. Victory can only come from destroying each and every Shivan fightercraft and capital ship. And this the GTA/PVN or GTVA simply does not have the firepower to accomplish.

This is very astute.

[Polpolion]

The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry.

K, maybe. The way I understood it originally was that the Terrans and Vasudans studied the shield technology and then started modifying the weapons to make them more effective against Shivan shields. And do remember that they didn't have GTVA back then. Only GTA and PVN.

Actually, as I recall, the Vasudans worked with the Terran scientists to develop the technology. The GTVA was a spur-of-the-moment alliance that, after the Lucifer was destroyed, became a little more solidified.

The GTVA didn't exist until after the GW. There was an alliance during the GW, but technically not the governing body that the GTVA is.

[azile0]

Well, Alpha 1, (you, duh!) is essentially the firepower of a Colossus (toned down a bit) and the skill of a bally flippin whatchamachallit. He is a Juggernaught in a fighter. with Subachs.

[eliex]

 
Exactly. And if people say that when you put Shivans on Insane levels on FRED, then it's more realistic,
how about YOU playing shivan and fighting another GTF Perseus on INSANE.

You die nearly right away ( and that's Dragon) 

[Jeff Vader]

The GTVA also took the laser technology from the Shivans and improved the GTVA's weaponry.

K, maybe. The way I understood it originally was that the Terrans and Vasudans studied the shield technology and then started modifying the weapons to make them more effective against Shivan shields. And do remember that they didn't have GTVA back then. Only GTA and PVN.

Actually, as I recall, the Vasudans worked with the Terran scientists to develop the technology. The GTVA was a spur-of-the-moment alliance that, after the Lucifer was destroyed, became a little more solidified.

That'd be the shield technology. Once the GTA and PVN had acquired enough intelligence about Shivan technology, they began working on the shield systems and we saw that funky cutscene about the subject. But the Avenger was just another Terran weapon. McCarthy tried to steal the prototypes and sell them to the Vasudans, but was stopped. Then, when the Shivans arrived, GTA began modifying the Avenger to make it more effective against the shields. I really don't remember hearing any implications in-game, that would have stated that the Avenger was a joint project. And there was no GTVA. There were the GTA and the PVN. Once the Shivans appeared and conclusions were made, the GTA and the PVN did make a truce, and later an alliance. But it was just an alliance at that point. Just a means of trying to beat the Shivans. Even all the briefings talked about the GTA, and occasionally the PVN. The actual GTVA from FS2 was formed only after the Great War.

[TrashMan]

Correct. The Avenger was 100% terran and was already in prototype stages BEFORE the shivans came.

[Snail]

On insane, Shivan ships are still poop with(out) guns when compared to NTF fighters.

[Mobius]

Then the veterans trained them...

Shivans obviously place little value on the lives of individuals. While we go to great lengths to train our pilots and keep then alive (ejection, recovery) to them even large warships are expendable. It might be because training pilots ain't cheap and we humans are stingy.

Anyway, unless they are machines I seriously doubt they have a lifespan of thousands of years.
Every impression I got from FS2 points towards a "drone like" shivan behavior.

It doesn't mean the Shivans don't actually want to have good pilots. Again, the Manticores that appeared in both intro cutscenes were terrible opponents.

[TrashMan]

Not really.

In the FS1 intro the ship was damaged, without shields and loosing power...and chased by a dozen manticores.

In the FS2 intro there was a huge battle going on with ships popping all over the place.
The Herc is a sluggish fighter and we don't know the skill level of it's pilot (it was a major battle so you can bet there were enough rookies in the fight)

The only other fighter lost in the intro were the medusa bomber - one lost to a lot of firepower by a LOT of enemy fighters, the other two by a beam cannon from the Lucifer.

numbers are the shivans game, not skill.

[Mobius]

And who damaged Lt. Ash's Apollo and destroyed his wingmen plus the Vasudan they were fighting?

I'm talking about the meneuvers of the Manticore in FS2, not the skill of the pilot who flew the Hercules. If something like that could be represented ingame(it's partially possible with inertia and doubled speed) you wouldn't consider Shivan fighters weak opponents.

[AlphaOne]

shivans may be considered weak because they appera to have no imagination also they tend to use brute force and overwhealming numbers to beark the enemys defences rather then sophiticated tactics to take out the enemy! Sure the shivans almost always win but then again they do so with huge losses ! Sure if you happen to be an idiot who believes he can use the same tactic agains a race which basicly wrote the boock on brute force attacks then you are gooing to lose but if you play it smart you can inflict such horrific losses agains the shivans that if they num,bers were lets say 10 times that of the GTVA then the GTVA would win hand down! There would be no arguement there! But sadly they aparently outnumber the GTVA 80 to 1 so unless you can shoot down 80 shivan ships for every one you lost you have no hope of even drawing them to a stalemate!

[Mobius]

Who said that the Shivans sortied all of their Juggernauts in Capella? The ratio is much more than 80:1.

They win thanks to the numbers but it doesn't mean they're not experienced and skilled. The Shivans seem easy to defeat just because the player is Terran!

[TrashMan]

And who damaged Lt. Ash's Apollo and destroyed his wingmen plus the Vasudan they were fighting?

Lots of shivan...shields..advanced weapons..jumping two patrols ALREADY FIGHTING...yeah. 
shivan pilots must be brilliant to take out a few damaged patrols fighters with the element of surprise, superior numbers and technology.
Oh wait - one did actually ESCAPE!!!!

I'm talking about the meneuvers of the Manticore in FS2, not the skill of the pilot who flew the Hercules. If something like that could be represented ingame(it's partially possible with inertia and doubled speed) you wouldn't consider Shivan fighters weak opponents.[/i][/color]

there was nothing special about it's manouvres.

[Mobius]

Lots of shivan...shields..advanced weapons..jumping two patrols ALREADY FIGHTING...yeah. 
shivan pilots must be brilliant to take out a few damaged patrols fighters with the element of surprise, superior numbers and technology.
Oh wait - one did actually ESCAPE!!!!

So? It doesn't mean they sucks. The Shivans let Ash survive because they needed to find the Terran outpost!

Until the development of shields taking a Shivan fighter down was nearly impossible. Strange, two or more skilled pilots should be able to handle an inferior pilot with ML-16s 

I'm talking about the meneuvers of the Manticore in FS2, not the skill of the pilot who flew the Hercules. If something like that could be represented ingame(it's partially possible with inertia and doubled speed) you wouldn't consider Shivan fighters weak opponents.

there was nothing special about it's manouvres.

2) Learn how to quote colored posts. The meneuvers aren't exactly the same of Gryphus 1 in ACX, but they're much better than what the Manticore do ingame. Try to imagine 3-4 of those Manticores attacking you.