[Snail]

2) Learn how to quote colored posts. The meneuvers aren't exactly the same of Gryphus 1 in ACX, but they're much better than what the Manticore do ingame. Try to imagine 3-4 of those Manticores attacking you.

I know how to quote colored posts! I AM SO COOL!!

The Manticores in the cutscenes appear to be able to move in all three axes (note the Manticores movements as it fires the lasers just before destroying Lt. Ash's fighter).

[TrashMan]

So? It doesn't mean they sucks. The Shivans let Ash survive because they needed to find the Terran outpost!

Until the development of shields taking a Shivan fighter down was nearly impossible. Strange, two or more skilled pilots should be able to handle an inferior pilot with ML-16s  [/i]

Pffft...with 100's of fighters and sensors you think tehy'd have trouble finding an outpost that's also a trade hub..that doesn't even try to remain hidden at the least?

2) Learn how to quote colored posts. The meneuvers aren't exactly the same of Gryphus 1 in ACX, but they're much better than what the Manticore do ingame. Try to imagine 3-4 of those Manticores attacking you.

And we know terran fighters can't move like that in the REAL FS universe exactly how? And what would that have to do with pilot skill btw? Or does a better fihgter = better pilot for you?

[eliex]

 And besides, it's not exactly like the Lucifer or whatever destroyer appeared by the stationjust happened to be standing by when the Shivans who were attacking Ash's fighter found out where Ross 128 was
                                                       UNLESS of course the Lucifer already knew where Ross 128 was!

[jr2]

The Manticore can move on all 3 axis in-game, it's one of the few Shivan fighters that do.  All Terran / Vasudan ones are stuck on regular axis, as well as most Shivan fighters.

[Mobius]

So? It doesn't mean they sucks. The Shivans let Ash survive because they needed to find the Terran outpost!

Until the development of shields taking a Shivan fighter down was nearly impossible. Strange, two or more skilled pilots should be able to handle an inferior pilot with ML-16s 

Pffft...with 100's of fighters and sensors you think tehy'd have trouble finding an outpost that's also a trade hub..that doesn't even try to remain hidden at the least?

My posts are blue, BLUE!!!

The GTVA couldn't find the Repulse, keep this in mind...the GTVA had to lure it to the battlefield! There already are many topics about radar systems. During FS2, scouts found rebel and Shivan ships. Scouts, not long range sensors. Sensors also played their role, but the scouts turned out to be vital. You need time to get the signal of a warship from long distance, you will never be able to destroy NTF ships approaching a rally point if you detect the rally point...let's see...when most ships are already gone.

The Manticores jumped out and then attacked Ash, they undoubtely left a survivor to discover the location of the base. There aren't proofs, but I bet that the Manticores that attacked Ash at the end of the cutscene were the same Ash engaged before. A small number of fighters that "better pilots" should have been able to handle

Maybe they left a Vasudan survivor, too. Who knows?

2) Learn how to quote colored posts. The meneuvers aren't exactly the same of Gryphus 1 in ACX, but they're much better than what the Manticore do ingame. Try to imagine 3-4 of those Manticores attacking you.

And we know terran fighters can't move like that in the REAL FS universe exactly how? And what would that have to do with pilot skill btw? Or does a better fihgter = better pilot for you?

Look. The speed was also different. Watch all cutscenes where a spacecraft appears and tell me if the ingame speed is the same.

With high speeds fighters like the Manticore are difficult to defeat in a dogfight. A fast fighter has a thin armor and a slow fighter has a heavy armor. In the game slow and armored fighters have a considerable advantage. It doesn't happen in the Universe. Use Joshua's tables...

Ah, also look at the Astaroth. Ingame physics make it a weak fighter. It becomes stronger with different physics(please note that different physics means "Universe physics", in this case).

[karajorma]

My posts are blue, BLUE!!!

No one else cares Mobius. We don't have to respect your affectations

[Mobius]

Try to learn how to quote colored posts

[Jeff Vader]

Try to learn how to quote colored posts [/i][/color]

No one else cares. Really. Besides, the colours shouldn't affect the contents of the posts. Which means that they aren't necessary when quoting.

[Mobius]

Try to learn how to quote colored posts

No one else cares. Really. Besides, the colours shouldn't affect the contents of the posts. Which means that they aren't necessary when quoting.

Well, the fact that they "magically" become colored when I quote your posts satisfies me. Now let's return on topic.

[Snail]

The Repulse was hidden. Outpost Riviera was not. I think leaving Ash alive was a minor mistake on the Shivan's part.

[TrashMan]

The Manticores jumped out and then attacked Ash, they undoubtely left a survivor to discover the location of the base. There aren't proofs, but I bet that the Manticores that attacked Ash at the end of the cutscene were the same Ash engaged before. A small number of fighters that "better pilots" should have been able to handle

Maybe they left a Vasudan survivor, too. Who knows?[/i]

Where do you get a "small" number? The Lucifer carried a LOT of fighters. Vasudans and terrans PATROLS (patrols are by definition small - I'd assume a single wing) have been fighting, thus were already damaged, some fighters might have bought it even before the shivies joined the party. They had no shields, no effective weapons against shivan shields.
You as a player can barely kill one Scorpio fighter.
Now watch that cutscene again and count the number of shivan fighter appearing. A lot.
Now give Alpha 1 a damaged fighter wiht ML-16 and throw 12 manticores at it. Let's see how long you live.


Oh, I don't quote color becouse I DON'T WANT TO.

With high speeds fighters like the Manticore are difficult to defeat in a dogfight. A fast fighter has a thin armor and a slow fighter has a heavy armor. In the game slow and armored fighters have a considerable advantage. It doesn't happen in the Universe. Use Joshua's tables...

Ah, also look at the Astaroth. Ingame physics make it a weak fighter. It becomes stronger with different physics(please note that different physics means "Universe physics", in this case).[/i][/color]

and I ask again - what does that have to do wiht pilot skill? Shivans had better fighters - we all know that. How does that affect piloting skill in any way if not negatively? (they had far better fighters and we still killed them off! Their  pilots must suck)

[jr2]

Hmm... Mobius, what weapons were available for your use to kill your first Shivan in FS1?  At the time of my first Shivan kill, I only had the ML-16.  So.  Did you use an Avenger or an ML-16?

[Snail]

Did you use an Avenger or an ML-16?

I used Furies and Disruptors.

[Mobius]

The Repulse was hidden. Outpost Riviera was not. I think leaving Ash alive was a minor mistake on the Shivan's part.

Eh? The Repulse didn't have jamming systems.

Real Admiral Koth is somewhere in this system. He will not commit the Repulse unless it's absolutely necessary.

I don't see references to jamming systems. The point is that you need time to get a detailled scan of a system. You might detect the Repulse and send a strike force but you will surely find nothing since the warship is most likely to change its location periodically.

The Manticores jumped out and then attacked Ash, they undoubtely left a survivor to discover the location of the base. There aren't proofs, but I bet that the Manticores that attacked Ash at the end of the cutscene were the same Ash engaged before. A small number of fighters that "better pilots" should have been able to handle

Maybe they left a Vasudan survivor, too. Who knows?

Where do you get a "small" number? The Lucifer carried a LOT of fighters. Vasudans and terrans PATROLS (patrols are by definition small - I'd assume a single wing) have been fighting, thus were already damaged, some fighters might have bought it even before the shivies joined the party. They had no shields, no effective weapons against shivan shields.
You as a player can barely kill one Scorpio fighter.
Now watch that cutscene again and count the number of shivan fighter appearing. A lot.
Now give Alpha 1 a damaged fighter wiht ML-16 and throw 12 manticores at it. Let's see how long you live.


Oh, I don't quote color becouse I DON'T WANT TO.

I see only a handful of Manticores at the end of the cutscene. How can you claim that the ones that decimated TV patrols were in a big number?

Oh God, they're following me! Mayday! This is Lieutenant Ash on Terran Patrol wing Gamma, Three Niner, reporting... Taken heavy damage! Requesting immediate fighter cover and rescue. Come in anybody!

Oh thank God! Our wing was ambushed - we didn't have a chance! I'm sure they're tracking me.

I--I don't know. They weren't Vasudan, and they weren't Terran. Oh God, they're these death-black ships -

- and they flew like -

- and their weapons were too much. They wasted everyone!

Send FIGHTERS! I--I know they're following me. Send everything you have now!

I can feel them following me.

Oh my God! I'm dead! We're all dead!

It's too late! Oh God!

(as his fighter explodes) Aaaaaaaaaahhh!

They were likely to be the same Manticores that attacked TV patrols. Read carefully what Ash said. Do you think the Shivans had only better weapons and fighters at their advantage? What led Ash to realize that even GTA assets defending Outpost Riviera wouldn't have been enough? The Shivans must have been terrible in combat to turn a GTA pilot into a rabbit.

With high speeds fighters like the Manticore are difficult to defeat in a dogfight. A fast fighter has a thin armor and a slow fighter has a heavy armor. In the game slow and armored fighters have a considerable advantage. It doesn't happen in the Universe. Use Joshua's tables...

Ah, also look at the Astaroth. Ingame physics make it a weak fighter. It becomes stronger with different physics(please note that different physics means "Universe physics", in this case).

and I ask again - what does that have to do wiht pilot skill? Shivans had better fighters - we all know that. How does that affect piloting skill in any way if not negatively? (they had far better fighters and we still killed them off! Their  pilots must suck)

They had good pilots and good fighters. Is it too hard to believe?!?

Hmm... Mobius, what weapons were available for your use to kill your first Shivan in FS1?  At the time of my first Shivan kill, I only had the ML-16.  So.  Did you use an Avenger or an ML-16?

ML-16. Pay attention on the debriefing. The player is the only pilot who destroyed a Shivan. Strange, since they only have the advantage of flying better fighters while the pilots suck 

[Snail]

The Repulse was hidden. Outpost Riviera was not. I think leaving Ash alive was a minor mistake on the Shivan's part.

Eh? The Repulse didn't have jamming systems.

Real Admiral Koth is somewhere in this system. He will not commit the Repulse unless it's absolutely necessary.

I don't see references to jamming systems. The point is that you need time to get a detailled scan of a system. You might detect the Repulse and send a strike force but you will surely find nothing since the warship is most likely to change its location periodically.[/i][/color]

I said it was hiding somewhere in the system. I didn't say it was using jamming systems. Riviera probably had loads and loads of freighters and cruisers whizzing around doing crappy things. By vectoring incoming ship's subspace jumps, you could easily find the location of Outpost Riviera. It made no effort to remain hidden. The repulse, par contre, made an effort to remain hidden from the Colossus. It may have powered-down non-essential systems as well as stayed away from the main battlefields, or not allowed ships to go near it and give its position away.

[Mobius]

By saying that you're giving for sure that NTF ships turned out non essential systems when they moved to they rallying positions.

An how can you vector the course of freighters from a random location of the system? You must encounter them first(maybe the Shivans can do it with their advantaged technology)! The Shivans simply decided to leave a survivor, they were sure of the consequences. Maybe...they always do this way.

[Snail]

By saying that you're giving for sure that NTF ships turned out non essential systems when they moved to they rallying positions.

Am I? I didn't say ANYTHING about rallying positions.

An how can you vector the course of freighters from a random location of the system? You must encounter them first(maybe the Shivans can do it with their advantaged technology)! The Shivans simply decided to leave a survivor, they were sure of the consequences. Maybe...they always do this way.

Vectoring the subspace jumps is possible by using sensors. Reconnaissance craft could easily have done this without being detected.

[Mobius]

1) Your theory implies a reference to NTF rally positions. The GTVA used scouts to find them and tracked ships into subspace when it was possible.

2) I hope you're only refering to Shivan craft

[TrashMan]

I see only a handful of Manticores at the end of the cutscene. How can you claim that the ones that decimated TV patrols were in a big number?

Shivans like big numbers..and it was one terran and one vasudan patrol. That would be roughly 8 fighters (assuming none was destroyed during their fighting).
there were approx 6 manticores behind Ash, the Lucy in front of him, and more fighters jumping in.

Oh thank God! Our wing was ambushed - we didn't have a chance! I'm sure they're tracking me.

I--I don't know. They weren't Vasudan, and they weren't Terran. Oh God, they're these death-black ships -

- and they flew like -

- and their weapons were too much. They wasted everyone!

Tehy were ambushed by superior fighters with superior weapons. I say again - where do you see proof of shivan superior piloting skills?
Is it "and they flew like"? Since that can mean many things since the sentance isn't finished - possibly refering to the unusually high mobility of the manticore.

Read carefully what Ash said. Do you think the Shivans had only better weapons and fighters at their advantage?

And inabiltiy to track and lock. And surprise. And bigger numbers (tehy were attacked by the lucifer fighters)

What led Ash to realize that even GTA assets defending Outpost Riviera wouldn't have been enough? The Shivans must have been terrible in combat to turn a GTA pilot into a rabbit.

Maby the superior technology, the inabiltiy to target or hurt their fighters...the Lucifer?

ML-16. Pay attention on the debriefing. The player is the only pilot who destroyed a Shivan. Strange, since they only have the advantage of flying better fighters while the pilots suck 

What's so strange? I never managed to kill more than 1 in that mission. Not only are they nigh impossible to bring down with ML-16's, they also leave the area after a while.

[TrashMan]

An how can you vector the course of freighters from a random location of the system? You must encounter them first(maybe the Shivans can do it with their advantaged technology)! The Shivans simply decided to leave a survivor, they were sure of the consequences. Maybe...they always do this way.

You have to be in sensor range when it jumps out, and that's about all it takes for tracking (and hte knowledge on how to track trough subspace, and we know shivans allready know that.)