[BloodEagle]

Anyone else see the ads triggered by this thread?

No, I don't see them. Ad blockers own.

[DarkBasilisk]

This makes my brain hurts....
 

It's because you can't comprehend your own system. It is a matter of perspective. One cannot observe and thus cannot analyze a system in which they affect. I call it Box Theory. Essentially there is no free will if looked from outside a box that contains the universe. But inside the universe there is free will (or the illusion thereof) because you are not aware of the choices you will make even if it could be predicted from the beginning of time that you would make them in a certain way. I don't have time to elaborate on it further, but one thing to tie it together: God can only predict the future as we comprehend it in our universe box. He/She can see everything that will happen in our universe under the condition that he does not interfere. But he does not know his actions, so he cannot know whether he will interfere and thus change the workings of the universe.

[achtung]

lol god


If you look at free will with any scrutiny, you see that it's impossible.  Everything that happens today is a result of something else happening before it.  Everything is a reaction to a reaction.

[Fearless Leader]

You always have a choice, if you have the will. That's what makes you human.

No it isnt, you can choose a lot of things but not everything. We are still in many complex ways slaves to our instincts. But simply; you cant choose not to be scared, you cant choose not to be hungry or tired and you cant choose to be hetrosexual or homosexual.

Ahh, but you can choose not to run away, not to eat, and not to sleep(for a period of time) even if those choices end in death.

We as humans have the ability to overcome our own natural traits, just because I am afraid does not mean I have to let fear control my actions, I choose not to eat when have food in front of me, and not to sleep as soon as I am tired. It is choosing that makes us men and women and choosing that sets us aside from the animals.

[karajorma]

But whether or not you are the sort of person who would choose that is dependant on your personality.

It's all very well saying "I have free will. I can choose to shoot myself through the head tomorrow" but it's most likely all talk. Unless you're the sort of person who would commit suicide, you won't. You'll "freely" decide that shooting yourself isn't a good idea.

[IPAndrews]

[troll]I'm going to choose to be homosexual for the day. In fact there's a nice chap sat over there right now. I might give him the eye for a bit and then buy him coffee. Take him into the storage room for a bit of bob's your uncle. I plan on being heterosexual again this evening though as my girlfriend is extremely cute.[/troll]

[Maniax]

If not free will then...will on parole?

[TrashMan]

And that homosexual inclination is purely biolgical/genetic and has nothing to do with choice.

Yes it does, it shows you dont choose who you are attracted to, something I thought was pretty obvious to begin with. With this new research we can see more of the biological factors behind why homosexuality exists in nature.

You can certainly choose not to kiss someone, you can choose not have sex with someone. That was never in dispute. But the fact still remains you cant choose not to be attracted to someone. When will you guys realise that homosexuality is attraction , it ISNT SEX. A gay man wouldnt stop being gay just because he isnt ****ing other men.

Dude, why do you think I used the word inclination instead of behaviour?
Exactly for the reasons you posted - homosexual inclination (biological attraction) isn't a choice, but homosexual behaviour is.

Your hatred of homosexuality, your idea that homosexuality is wrong is completely religious in nature and bears no relation to reality AT ALL, which is fine, just dont try and claim it is. If you want to fight me on that you will loose as you have no facts behind you. As we saw in the last thread it came down to you thinking it was offending and hurting your god, which is fine, but thats a religious belief.

erm..no. I don't hate them and it really has to do little with my religion.

[Edward Bradshaw]

Exactly for the reasons you posted - homosexual inclination (biological attraction) isn't a choice, but homosexual behaviour is

erm..no. I don't hate them and it really has to do little with my religion.

Ok whatever, so then would you mind explaining whats wrong with being gay without any religious arguments?

This should be entertaining, so good luck with this one!

[MP-Ryan]

Dude, why do you think I used the word inclination instead of behaviour?
Exactly for the reasons you posted - homosexual inclination (biological attraction) isn't a choice, but homosexual behaviour is

Wait wait... so if someone is born biologically different from the majority, they should not engage in sexual activity and enjoyment?  Is that REALLY what you're saying?  Why?  Because it offends a prudish society?

[Mika]

There are two things that come into my mind when talking about this subject.

First, what do the homosexuals themselves say if researchers develop a medicine that can change the behavior of a homosexual person to a heterosexual person?

The second one is more Darwinistic, I'm not a biologist so I'm not really familiar with this, but what advantages could there be for any species to turn a certain amount of its population to homosexuals?

Also, I'm wandering on the dangerous zones, talking about things I have no clue of, so this time it just might be possible that I could actually be defeated in oh-so-serious-internet-debates. I have a feeling that most civilizations that have collapsed had this lack of core values that made the nations great and one of the side effects has been that due to the relaxed moral athmosphere, homosexual people have became more visible in the society. If this is true I don't have a damn clue, but that is something that I have managed to put together from some fragments of history.

And I also had the misfortune to see that commercial at the top of the page. Urgh. Gotta go throwing up. There are indeed some things that the normal man was not meant to see.

Mika

[Hazaanko]

Dude, why do you think I used the word inclination instead of behaviour?
Exactly for the reasons you posted - homosexual inclination (biological attraction) isn't a choice, but homosexual behaviour is

Wait wait... so if someone is born biologically different from the majority, they should not engage in sexual activity and enjoyment?  Is that REALLY what you're saying?  Why?  Because it offends a prudish society?

Some people are born biologically with the inclination to be violent and hurt/kill other people.  Should they give into those tendencies?  Are you saying that they SHOULD because that is the way they were born?  (an example, nothing more.  I am not equating murder with the act of homosexuality)

On the topic of free will - Free will is NOT the ability to control the consequences to your actions.  Free will is merely the ability to make a choice.

[Edward Bradshaw]

Some people are born biologically with the inclination to be violent and hurt/kill other people.  Should they give into those tendencies?  Are you saying that they SHOULD because that is the way they were born?  (an example, nothing more.  I am not equating murder with the act of homosexuality)

Lets use a more appropriate example shall we?

How about paedophiles. What if they also cant control being attracted to children? Which I think is probably true, and for the sake of arguments lets assume it is. The reason why they should NOT have sex with kids is because paedophilia hurts and destroys the lives of children. Its societys responsibility to stop them from from hurting people. Homosexuality is NOT hurting anyone and thats the difference.

[Hazaanko]

Some people are born biologically with the inclination to be violent and hurt/kill other people.  Should they give into those tendencies?  Are you saying that they SHOULD because that is the way they were born?  (an example, nothing more.  I am not equating murder with the act of homosexuality)

Lets use a more appropriate example shall we?

How about paedophiles. What if they also cant control being attracted to children? Which I think is probably true, and for the sake of arguments lets assume it is. The reason why they should NOT have sex with kids is because paedophilia hurts and destroys the lives of children. Its societys responsibility to stop them from from hurting people. Homosexuality is NOT hurting anyone and thats the difference.

Well, that would be a different argument now, wouldn't it?

[TrashMan]

But whether or not you are the sort of person who would choose that is dependant on your personality.

It's all very well saying "I have free will. I can choose to shoot myself through the head tomorrow" but it's most likely all talk. Unless you're the sort of person who would commit suicide, you won't. You'll "freely" decide that shooting yourself isn't a good idea.

Ye Gods...we make hunderds of choices each day....ranging from important ones to trivial ones.. But they are in fact choices.

Ok whatever, so then would you mind explaining whats wrong with being gay without any religious arguments?

This should be entertaining, so good luck with this one!

It's a genetic fluke, and nothing to be encouraged. I don't have to explain further.. take it as you wish

Wait wait... so if someone is born biologically different from the majority, they should not engage in sexual activity and enjoyment?  Is that REALLY what you're saying?  Why?  Because it offends a prudish society?

As far as I'm concerend they can do whatever tehy want as long as they don't shove it in my face and claim it's perfectly normal.

[MP-Ryan]

Ye Gods...we make hunderds of choices each day....ranging from important ones to trivial ones.. But they are in fact choices.

Yeah, but your pattern of choicemaking, if not the discrete choices themselves, is pre-ordained.

As far as I'm concerend they can do whatever tehy want as long as they don't shove it in my face and claim it's perfectly normal.

This is something you usually hear from homophobes.

1.  It IS perfectly normal.  Fully between 1/15 and 1/10 humans are not heterosexual.  Nevermind heterosexuals that engage in homosexual activites.  Go look up the Kinsey Report and educate yourself.
2.  "Shoving it in your face" - I'm never met a homosexual that shoved it in my face; most don't go around announcing it.  Of those that do make it painfully obvious, they are no different from the heterosexual couple I frequently see on the bus who like to try to eat each other's faces.  Good taste and courtesy isn't divided along lines of sexual identitiy.  Not to mention, those people who go all out in public displays of affection are relatively rare, and the level of affection acceptable in public is socially constructed for the social norms of a particular society at a particular point in history.

Out of curiosity, are you friends with any self-identified homosexuals, or are you just judging based on media representations and popular rhetoric?

People are people, regardless of who they choose to ****.

[TrashMan]

Yeah, but your pattern of choicemaking, if not the discrete choices themselves, is pre-ordained.

Sez you. I've seen nothing that even hints at that.

This is something you usually hear from homophobes.

You must be confusing me with someone who actually cares what you think of me.

[WMCoolmon]

I think all this arguing about free will, while it might be relevant somewhat to the biological vs psychological aspect, is kind of stupid because that's very well something you could get in argument over. Yes, that's happened, right here on HLP, and it didn't get anywhere then either.

But mostly I dropped in when I saw this:

You must be confusing me with someone who actually cares what you think of me.

If you're going to express your personal views on a forum, expect people to disagree with them. Don't turn this into an attack on your self-esteem when all people are saying is that you seem biased against homosexuals, and your reasons aren't justified.

Really, if you are biased against homosexuals or believe that they're somehow 'different' from everybody else, you're putting yourself in a poor position to be able to judge them. As a general rule, people don't like to hang out with other people that make them feel isolated or like they're simply being put up with.

I think my favorite story comes from a speaker in a psych class that I took. He constantly dated girls through high school, but never really felt like it was working out. He eventually met a guy several hours drive away, but kept on telling all his friends that he was seeing a girl. Finally, he decided to come out of the closet and called his best friend and told him "You know Julie?" "Yeah." "Julie...is actually Chris." Then silence. Then finally, "Dude, I think you just totally changed my opinion on gay people."

People who talk on cell phones in the theater annoy me a lot more than two men or women holding hands in public.

Of all the gay people I've known in person, I've only known two who were really flamboyant about it, and both were just as quick to use it as a joke.

[MP-Ryan]

Sez you. I've seen nothing that even hints at that.

Hardly surprising since you've shown no evidence that you actually read academic journals or follow complex biology.

There's a great deal of evidence for it from model organisms, and an accumulating body of research supporting that hypothesis for humans as well.  As I usually say in response to your posts:  look it up, educate yourself.

You must be confusing me with someone who actually cares what you think of me.

I was making an observation based on what you've said so far.  If you're not homophobic (and I merely stated that you were echoing a viewpoint they espouse, I didn't say you were) you certainly have a mindset similar to their usual rhetoric.  You can feel free to elaborate, or not, at your discretion.

At any rate, thus far all we've seen out of you is a lot of personal opinion and precious little in the way of supported fact (looking back, the only supported fact you've dreged up is the biological connection to homosexual attraction; the rest of your comments are pure erroneous speculation at best and willfull ignorance at worst).

[Bobboau]

ok, so, trashman does not like homosexuals, or, pardon, "homosexual behavior". ok, well then, ignoring the obvius question of 'why?', given how we have identified that there is a genetic link then why should you not want people to express this trait? think about it in the long run. if there is no penalty for homosexuality then people with the inclination will more often then not express it, yes? now given that this behavior/personality trait is incompatible with, or at the least a hinderence to, sexual reproduction, in the long run fewer people with the "gay gene" will be having children and thus fewer still being born.

so, as ironically paradoxical as it sounds, the most effective way to rid the earth of this trait you dislike for whatever reason is in fact to be as supportive as you can to people who feel it.