Author Topic: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...  (Read 7044 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
http://www.livescience.com/animals/071209-fly-genes.html

Coupled with genes like fruitless, retained, and double-sexed, it is becoming more and more evident that homosexual attraction and drive is biologically programmed.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Isn't that what I've been saying from day 1?

I have been vindicated!!!! :D
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Hang on a sec. You claimed that there were no naturally gay animals and that they simply looked like they were gay too IIRC.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
No.
I claimed that gay animals don't shove it in eachothers arse. And that homosexual inclination is purely biolgical/genetic and has nothing to do with choice.
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Offline redsniper

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
So you're saying there's a difference between the inclination and acting on the inclination?
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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
No.
I claimed that gay animals don't shove it in eachothers arse.

Which they do and I wonder where you got the idea that they didnt. Perhaps you ignored my post where I responded to this.

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And that homosexual inclination is purely biolgical/genetic and has nothing to do with choice.

Yes it does, it shows you dont choose who you are attracted to, something I thought was pretty obvious to begin with. With this new research we can see more of the biological factors behind why homosexuality exists in nature.

You can certainly choose not to kiss someone, you can choose not have sex with someone. That was never in dispute. But the fact still remains you cant choose not to be attracted to someone. When will you guys realise that homosexuality is attraction , it ISNT SEX. A gay man wouldnt stop being gay just because he isnt ****ing other men.

Your hatred of homosexuality, your idea that homosexuality is wrong is completely religious in nature and bears no relation to reality AT ALL, which is fine, just dont try and claim it is. If you want to fight me on that you will loose as you have no facts behind you. As we saw in the last thread it came down to you thinking it was offending and hurting your god, which is fine, but thats a religious belief.

Ed
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 07:32:27 pm by Edward Bradshaw »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
You always have a choice, if you have the will. That's what makes you human.

And on a slightly lighter-hearted note, I keep hearing about studies regarding gay animals, but I've never seen one covering lesbian critters. I assume the studies are out there, so where are they? :p
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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
You always have a choice, if you have the will. That's what makes you human.

No it isnt, you can choose a lot of things but not everything. We are still in many complex ways slaves to our instincts. But simply; you cant choose not to be scared, you cant choose not to be hungry or tired and you cant choose to be hetrosexual or homosexual.

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And on a slightly lighter-hearted note, I keep hearing about studies regarding gay animals, but I've never seen one covering lesbian critters. I assume the studies are out there, so where are they? :p

"Homosexual" doesnt just mean man on man, you know?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 07:29:40 pm by Edward Bradshaw »

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
No.
I claimed that gay animals don't shove it in eachothers arse. And that homosexual inclination is purely biolgical/genetic and has nothing to do with choice.

Sorry dude, many animal species engage in anal intercourse.

There is no such thing as homosexual inclination.  There is homosexuality, a same-sex attraction, and homosexual behaviour, same-sex sexual behaviours including kissing, stroking, caressing, mutual stimulation of sexual organs, etc.  And before you launch off, sexual behaviours of all kinds are exhibited in over 150 species of animals, not just humans.

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You always have a choice, if you have the will. That's what makes you human.

There is a very long and drawn out argument with me citing many different genes and many different examples here that actually argues there is no such thing as free will, but I'll skip the details and give you the summary:

Your genes specify a certain range of behaviours that you are most likely to engage in from birth.  These genetic combinations cause you to gravitate toward or actively seek certain environments.  Environmental stimuli feed back on your genetics, altering gene expression into a further constrictive pattern which narrows the environmental and behavioural choices you make even further.  It's an infinite feedback loop, essentially.  While choice may be theoretically infinite, practically speaking we all are given only a very narrow set of choices which our genotype ultimately determiens at birth, and which further reinforce our gene expression and behaviours.

Free will is nonsense.  Sure, I have the physical ability to go out and rob a bank tomorrow, but my personality is such that I won't.  Of course, I might if it were necessary for the survival of a family member, but that's another personality-determined choice, not a matter of free will.

There's actually a good academic paper on the subject which I can track down the reference for if anyone wants to dig through it.

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And on a slightly lighter-hearted note, I keep hearing about studies regarding gay animals, but I've never seen one covering lesbian critters. I assume the studies are out there, so where are they?

Gay is just lay terminology.  Most academic papers study homosexual behaviour or homosexuality, and "both" sexes (we'll assume dichotomy for simplicities sake, even if it's not at all accurate) are studied.  I saw a paper a few weeks back on same-sex behaviour among the females of a particular monkey species.

Fruit flies study primarily male flies because females don't really have much of a sexual drive, and the genes that control homosexual behaviour have specifically active variants in males.  It's only male persistence that actually allows Drosophila species to reproduce =)  That said, there are a couple Drosophila mutations that cause the females to get rather frisky and start acting like males, which can be good for a laugh if you're a fly geneticist (and for the record, I'm not).
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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Free will is nonsense.  Sure, I have the physical ability to go out and rob a bank tomorrow, but my personality is such that I won't.  Of course, I might if it were necessary for the survival of a family member, but that's another personality-determined choice, not a matter of free will.

There's actually a good academic paper on the subject which I can track down the reference for if anyone wants to dig through it.

Its not a pretty thought and you will probably confuse people by arguing this. When I came to realise that free will may, may just be an illusion I realised that no matter what you have to go on with life as it it were. Society cannot function when people cannot be held accountable for their actions, and it really is a depressing thought to think we have no control over out destinys and might make you give up and not bother trying.

Its a bit irrelevant to argue this though, we cant not feel hungry for a burger if we are. We can choose not to eat the burger, if we are strong enough to resist it, but we cant resist wanting to eat the burger. Thats how I look at this situation.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 07:48:22 pm by Edward Bradshaw »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Ive been talking about Bonobo monkeys for years. they freely engage in male-male, female-female and even adult-child sex.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Free will is nonsense.  Sure, I have the physical ability to go out and rob a bank tomorrow, but my personality is such that I won't.  Of course, I might if it were necessary for the survival of a family member, but that's another personality-determined choice, not a matter of free will.

There's actually a good academic paper on the subject which I can track down the reference for if anyone wants to dig through it.

Its not a pretty thought and you will probably confuse people by arguing this. When I came to realise that free will may, may just be an illusion I realised that no matter what you have to go on with life as it it were. Society cannot function when people cannot be held accountable for their actions, and it really is a depressing thought to think we have no control over out destinys and might make you give up and not bother trying.

Its a bit irrelevant to argue this though, we cant not feel hungry for a burger if we are. We can choose not to eat the burger, if we are strong enough to resist it, but we cant resist wanting to eat the burger. Thats how I look at this situation.


The problem is that while free will doesn't exist, we are not entirely bound by the genetic complement we get at birth - our choices, limited as they may be by genetics, still shape our gene expression even further.  Here's how I conceptualize it:

Picture a normal curve.  68% of the possibilities fall within 1 standard deviation of the median.  That's what we're born with - 1 standard deviation from the median is the most likely our choices will deviate from our initial genetic options.  However, once a choice is made we now take a normal curve of that original 68%... and so on down the line.

The numbers are hypothetical, because it's just an example of collective decision converging on a gene expression pattern.

At any rate, it's a lot more complex that "I was born this way and can't escape it," but ultimately that's what the argument would be reduced to in simplistic terms by people without a heavy understanding of genetics and gene-environment interactions, so it's true that it's an argument best not propagated by those who don't understand it.  The social implications of the facile derivative are scary.

Ultimately, we've all developed through choices made within a framework that our genetics initially provided, and our choices in turn have shaped how we will choose again through shaping gene expression.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Ive been talking about Bonobo monkeys for years. they freely engage in male-male, female-female and even adult-child sex.

That's the species I was thinking of.

Interesting to note that species still has prohibitions against son-mother sexual interaction though.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Agreed, I think that's some sort of encoded genetic repulsion in most cases, interbreeding is absolutely deadly to the gene-pool in the long term.

Edit: Just wanted to add, I'm not sure how they are about Father/Daughter relationships, Bonobo society is almost Matriarchal in nature as I recall, so I suspect it would have the same taboos in place.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 08:49:11 pm by Flipside »

 
Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Free will is no illusion.  But free will is limited by the capacity of one's ignorance.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Free will is no illusion.  But free will is limited by the capacity of one's ignorance.

Come up with a valid argument against, "Every action we take is, in fact, a reaction."
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
:lol: Anyone else see the ads triggered by this thread?
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Yeah, seen 'em before, I get an ad for 'Gay Parship', which I keep reading as 'Gay Parsnip', now that would take some scientific proving!

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
Come up with a valid argument against, "Every action we take is, in fact, a reaction."

That everything will fall apart if we accept this as fact, therefore, regardless of the evidence, society must assume it is not?
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Offline Send in the TMF

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Re: Another nail in "homosexuality is a choice!"'s coffin...
This makes my brain hurts....
 :blah:
TMF? what the hell is the TMF?