Author Topic: Other races in Freespace  (Read 19642 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace
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The Lucifer fleet was a scouting mission to see what was causing new subspace disturbances.

I disagree - the Lucifer and its fleet was way too big for a scouting party. A scout would quietly drop in, snoop a bit then bug out back to mommy, not commit major resources to an extermination campaign.

IIRC, doesn't the box cover of FS2 say something along the line "They wonder what happened to their scouting fleet"  ???
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Re: Other races in Freespace

IIRC, doesn't the box cover of FS2 say something along the line "They wonder what happened to their scouting fleet"  ???

Yup. Got the box right here:

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Your nemesis has arrived...and they are
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Fun while it lasted.

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Offline Snail

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Re: Other races in Freespace
How are the shivans supposed to find every last ancient in the universe, especially if they scatter around? How do you find a bunch of people living in a forest on a planet? Magical Star Trek scanners that can tell you the number of noise hairs the guy on the left room in the hotel on the 9th planet on the system?
Just imagine how friggin huge just our galaxy is.
How you can hide ships in-system from even a large search force.

The Ancients wouldn't have stayed in hiding for 8,000 mother****ing years. They would have started rebuilding and then poof the Shivans come and bam they're all dead. The Shivans had 8,000 years to look for them. Do you have any idea how long 8,000 years is? It's not like a century or anything, it's practically all of human history.

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Other races in Freespace
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I'm making the following assumptions.

While there is a lot of guesswork that can be made, what you have put down in your post is pretty steep and rather contradictory to  canon.

Well I expected it to be controversial but contradictory to cannon I'm not sure how.

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Ancients:
     Not from this galaxy


I have not come across anything that suggests they were not from this galaxy.

Have you come across anything that say they were from this galaxy?  If they could explore a decent part of their galaxy before discovering subspace it's logical that they may be from a smaller galaxy. 


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     Explored most of their galaxies usable systems and moved out into neighboring galaxies.
     

This appears to be true according to :v:

Well we agree on this at least.


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Shivans:
     Creatures that live in subspace

No evidence save speculation, even in canon sources.
No but no evidence against it either.  Maybe they weren't native to subspace but evolved to live there.  Maybe they were created to exist there or enforce some other species laws.
 
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     Do not require node or anything else to travel to and from subspace

No, however they are able to use nodes that Terran and Vasudan subspace drives cannot, at least as far as canon has stated.
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     Only use the subspace nodes to track and follow us.

Nothing to support this. They do have subspace tracking, but they use the nodes same as we do.

Again nothing to disallow the theory.   Command in FS1 wondered how they bypassed some of the blockades.  Not needing our nodes could be a reason.

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     Attack any race that disturbers their domain

No solid info available to support this. Their motives have not been fathomed, and they cannot unless they open communication. So far, appart from Bosch's ETAK project, they'd rather fight than speak.

Yea but I'm trying to fathom.  Maybe the took Bosch to extract intel about our subspace knowledge from him. 

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Vasudans:
     Slave race of the Ancients brought to Vasuda Prime from their original home world.

Speculation, cannot and has not been confirmed, save that they may have had contact with the Ancients in the past.

Only a theory.  Seemed to be a good one and opens up campaign ideas.

     
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Terrans:
     Native to Earth but experimented on by the Ancients.
 

Experimented on us to what end? There's nothing to suggest they even knew our species existed.

Well I have a couple of theories on this.  First is they tried to eliminate us by biological warfare.  It wiped out the neanderthals and caused the bottleneck we see in the evolutionary timeline. Maybe they say the neanderthats as more of a threat then then us.  Second we were close to their species and they were doing genetic experiments on us to speed up our development.  Maybe they need troops. Maybe we are just a petrie dish that didn't get sterilized.

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Knossos:
     Device created by the Ancients to create subspace nodes.

We don't know if it was to create nodes for sure, or merely to stabilize existing ones. The info has not really been clearly explained for sure.

No we don't but one thing the game shows is that the jump nodes with Knossos devices seem to only lead to one system.  Systems without them seem to have many more destinations then nodes.  It's not on the maps but in the briefings.  One system is said to have more than a dozen destinations from its node(s)

I'm afraid that kind of shoots your theory full of holes, but for the sake of argument:

It may show some doubt but those shots weren't lethal. 

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Theory:

Ancients created Knossos devices to open subspace to them.


I think you should say more like give them increased access to subspace.

I was thinking more along the lines of they discovered the existence of subspace then experimented to find a way to travel from system to system faster.  That is where the Knossos comes it. 

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They left their own galaxy and made it to ours.
 
Again there is nothing that positively states they did not origionate in our galaxy.

No but there is nothing that says they did.

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After exploring part of out galaxy and several others they invoked the wrath of the Shivans for disturbing their native environment.


There is nothing definitvely placing subspace as the true home of the Shivans. The Shivans may be merely advanced xenophobes that just happen to be sensitive to subspace.

See above

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Final battles were fought across the galaxies.


All we really have for sure is that after the origional battles, the Ancients retreated, eventually abandoning their empire.

Yep and an empire that expands galaxies cannot be abandoned all at onces.  Surely the battles were fought on multiple fronts.


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In a last ditch effort the Ancients tried destroying the Knossos devices to stop the Shivans.  This is why there are no Knossos devices in the nearby systems.

Why not just turn the things off? As well, why build a Knossos if there was no need, which they may have felt to be the case?

Maybe it has to be turned off from both sides.  Maybe they were needed but no one ever thought the nodes would stabilize and the Knossos would no longer be needed.  Maybe the Shivans not knowing what was going on stabilized the nodes from within subspace.

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Unknown to the Ancients the Knossos devices once turned on for a period of time stabilize the node and are no longer needed.

If they created the technology, isn't it likely they would have a very good idea how it would perform?

Well when we made the first Nuke it was theorized that it could ignite the entire atmosphere.  We still did it and still don't know all there is to know about nuclear energy.  It's the we built it, it works, leave it alone philosophy.

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The Knossos the GTVA discovered was one of the last built and never turned on.

We have no way to prove this at all.


Yep.

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The Lucifer fleet was a scouting mission to see what was causing new subspace disturbances.

I disagree - the Lucifer and its fleet was way too big for a scouting party. A scout would quietly drop in, snoop a bit then bug out back to mommy, not commit major resources to an extermination campaign.

I can't believe I'm going to say this but I have to agree with Trashman.  Even if it wasn't stated what is a scouting party?  A small force sent to check things out.  If you have 10,000 ships it could be 100 ships.  If you have 100,000,000,000,000 ships...

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When the Sol node collapsed it sent shock waves through subspace.

Possible, however subspace and how it works is still up for debate.


I'll post about my theory on this later.

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Maybe these waves hurt the Shivans just like dropping a stick of dynamite in a pond of fish.

Not enough information on the Shivans to predict with accuracy. It could just as easily have no effect at all on them.


Again yep.  It's just a theory and relies on the Shivans living in subspace.

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Between FS1 and FS2 the Shivans assembled. They would have come no matter what but when we created a new subspace portal the Sathanas fleet closest by was angered and attacked prematurely. When the rest of the fleet arrived they saw us try to destroy a subspace node. Fearing that we would succeed they came up with a way to counteract the subspace shockwave by destroying the star. Their ships being capable of feeding off of a stars energy formed a ring and drew enough energy off of the star to make it collapse. The resulting collapse resulted in the supernova. Shivans go back into subspace to lick their wounds and build and gather an even stronger fleet.

Anyone's guess, but it just doesn't work for me. I still favour the supernode theory. The Shivans weren't so much sucking energy away from the star, more creating a subspace field around it. I'm not really sure that the Shivans were so much in terror of destructing nodes either. You would tend to think a supernova would likely destroy any nodes left in the viscinity... As for licking their wounds and building a stronger fleet? 80 great bloody juggernuts plus escorting fleet units and screen is a pretty darn powerful fleet don't you think? The GTVA certainly never mounted much in the line of successful challengers.


I alway like the supernode theory as well.  It still may be the best one but the beer was telling me otherwise

As for your ending questions:

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace
How are the shivans supposed to find every last ancient in the universe, especially if they scatter around? How do you find a bunch of people living in a forest on a planet? Magical Star Trek scanners that can tell you the number of noise hairs the guy on the left room in the hotel on the 9th planet on the system?
Just imagine how friggin huge just our galaxy is.
How you can hide ships in-system from even a large search force.

The Ancients wouldn't have stayed in hiding for 8,000 mother****ing years. They would have started rebuilding and then poof the Shivans come and bam they're all dead. The Shivans had 8,000 years to look for them. Do you have any idea how long 8,000 years is? It's not like a century or anything, it's practically all of human history.

And the ancients could hide again.
Where were the shivies in the last 8000 years? Doesn't look like they were cruisin' around this part of the galaxy. The Terrans and Vasudans fought a bloody war for 14 years - if there were any shivies near and they were attracted by subspace usage (as some claim) they would have arrived a lot sooner.

And it doesn't matter if it's 8 billion years looking for them. you can't find someone who doesn't want to be find in a place as large as the universe, especially if he has any gray matter in his skull.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Other races in Freespace
And it doesn't matter if it's 8 billion years looking for them. you can't find someone who doesn't want to be find in a place as large as the universe, especially if he has any gray matter in his skull.

Okay think of it this way.

We want to hide from the Shivans on Earth. Can we stay hidden until the year 10,000ad? After a while we WOULD start expanding, we would not stay stagnant. The Ancients can't be too different from us. They would also start expanding.

I agree that the universe is a HUGE place, but the Ancients can't try to hide for 8,000 years! Even after a century or so they would get bored and say "let's take a peek..." :rolleyes:

Take WW2 for example. Just sixty years after Germany gets bombed to hell and back, they're now one of the most powerful countries in the world. In 60 years! How do you think Germany will be after 8,000 years? Will it be the distraught, bombridden wasteland it was in 1945?

And the ancients could hide again.

Okay. You're a serial killer. You've killed John Doe. Now you're on the run. Do you want to spend ALL OF YOUR LIFE running? I doubt it. Even if YOU DO, what's to say the other 1000 or so serial killers who are moving with you want to do the same thing? (okay that was a stupid comparison but it gets my point across)

I seriously doubt the Ancients could be around for 8,000 years.

 
Re: Other races in Freespace
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And the ancients could hide again.
Where were the shivies in the last 8000 years? Doesn't look like they were cruisin' around this part of the galaxy. The Terrans and Vasudans fought a bloody war for 14 years - if there were any shivies near and they were attracted by subspace usage (as some claim) they would have arrived a lot sooner.

That actually makes a great deal of sense.

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And it doesn't matter if it's 8 billion years looking for them. you can't find someone who doesn't want to be find in a place as large as the universe, especially if he has any gray matter in his skull.

Again, this makes sense, athough what if it's fuscia matter in his skull?
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Offline Snail

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Re: Other races in Freespace
That actually makes a great deal of sense.

So there's sense in the fact that a race could keep running and hiding for 8,000 years?

 
Re: Other races in Freespace
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So there's sense in the fact that a race could keep running and hiding for 8,000 years?

Yes, actually there is. Stranger things have happened. Even a single planetary system is an enormous place, let alone a galaxie or three. It might surprise you how easily it is to hide in all of that. Simply keeping large distances and low emissions could go a long way.

A second part is that we have little information on the Ancients at all save that they had been an advanced and arrogant race of xenophobes like the Shivans. We have no idea if their society would have the will to remain hidden; if they would secretly rebuild in an out of the way place and return guns blazing once they felt they were ready for the Shivan war machine. They had a very vast empire before their contact with the bogiemen, so they would likely have a much stronger unit count on the Shivans than the GTVA did. It becomes therefore possible that they are hiding in some remote area of the galaxy rebuilding their forces to outmatch the Shivans before they come back to boot some space bug arses.

I don't think the Ancients would be any more benign a contact than the Shivans. Being caught between the two would likely be a pretty bad thing as well. The only saving grace appears to be that the Shivans and the Ancients do not seem to be as adaptable as quickly as Terrans and Vasudans, which could give us a chance at survival in such a scenario.
All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.
And a laughing yarn from a merry fellow rover.
And a quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trick's over.
- JOHN MASEFIELD

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Other races in Freespace
If the Ancients were preparing a counter attack, they probably would have attacked again before 8,000 years.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Other races in Freespace
Gotta agree with Trashman on this one. The universe is a big place and the Ancients knew their empire much better than the Shivans did.

The Ancients could simply have picked a star with a single node and blown the node after entering. As long as they took out even unstable nodes that formed after that even the Shivans couldn't follow them.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Other races in Freespace
But what would they do there for 8,000 years? If they're still alive then their technological advancements would make them gods or something. What would they do for 8,000 years?

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Other races in Freespace
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Quote
The Lucifer fleet was a scouting mission to see what was causing new subspace disturbances.

I disagree - the Lucifer and its fleet was way too big for a scouting party. A scout would quietly drop in, snoop a bit then bug out back to mommy, not commit major resources to an extermination campaign.

IIRC, doesn't the box cover of FS2 say something along the line "They wonder what happened to their scouting fleet"  ???

The box is by Interplay and is therefore not part of FS canon. It's marketing speak to say "Hey! You thought FS1's shivans were bad! Well they're just a scouting fleet compared to what we've got now!!!"
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace
So there's sense in the fact that a race could keep running and hiding for 8,000 years?

Ask yourself - how would you find the ancients..assuming every time the shivies come they run and re-locate. Most of them would probably die during the run, but not even the shivies could catch em' all. There are no magical sensors in FS2 with which you can detect a specific lifeform from lightyears away.

Unless the shivies preform a massive ground sweep (impossbile, even with their numbers) or sterilizatin of EVERY PLANET IN THE GALAXY (but if they did that there would be no humans of vasudans alive)

How do you track down a several hunderds/thousands members of any race that run and land on some remote planet, abandon their ship and hide in the forests/mountains? now multiply that by thousands of ships fleeing in every direction, and all the possible habitable planets in this galaxy or the next. Assuming they settled on a planet at all..they could be hinding in a nebula/asteroid belt and only make foraging runs or sumtin.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Other races in Freespace
I'm not talking about the Shivans. I'm talking about what the Ancients would do for 8,000 years.

 

Offline Vidmaster

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Re: Other races in Freespace
How can anyone live in subspace?

And how the hell could they evolve there? No matter there, not even a little dust atom. How to build ships and stuff?
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace
I'm not talking about the Shivans. I'm talking about what the Ancients would do for 8,000 years.

Expand..shivies come, ancients run, shivies kill most, some ancients survive. Rinse and repeat.
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Other races in Freespace
Well considering how many bllions of stars there ar in just our galaxy alone if just half of them have the capabilaties to support life or in the case of the FS universe most of them have this capabilatie then the Ancients had a very massive empire.

Sure the shivans came and well wasted they mighty empire but then again even the shivans could not of taken out in time or gather up all of the Ancients in one place and anihalate them all. I bet perhaps billions of them escaped the cleansing of the shivans. However if they are scattered in small colonies on the outer endes of the empire or some back water sistem the ancients have missed then it is safe to asume they not only survived but in 8000 years they could of become strong enough to rival the shivans.


I mean the posibilaties are there. And if they had any sort of common sense to them that si what they would do. Fleet lock up behind them or leave false trails perhaps some sacrificial slave ships or something to distract the shivans while they hid even deeper.

Then after 8000 years of development and rebuilding im willing to bet they got around to at least matching the shivans in some way.

Remeber if they were so advanced in terms of subspace 8000 years ago (knossos) how much more advanced would they be today?

Also the Ancients were on an equal footing of weapons tech as the terrans and vasudans in FS1 at the time of theyr homeworld beeing destroyer.


I mean the fact that theyr homeworld got glassed doesnt mean they got themselfs extinct. I mean come on the same happened to the vasudans and we still see them today here. And the vasudans have almost no place to run to.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Other races in Freespace
Who said that only systems with habitable stars are useful? What about systems with gas giants and/or large asteroid fields? They would be useful.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace
you know...having your race nearly anihilated and your planets vaporized does set your whole race back quit a bit.

Not only would a lot of knowledge be lost, but also all the production infrastructure and most of all, numbers.

with only a couple of thousands left it would take thousands of years to populate a planet again.
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