[Snail]

I'm going to temp ban the next person who says "It's a game" in response to one of these threads without actually saying anything pertinent. We all know it's a game. If you're uninterested in the subject  don't say anything.

Yeah those comments get very annoying in these discussions.

[TrashMan]

Nebula - no stars means it's hard if not impossible to tell where you are. In addition, the binary system may not have actually been in the same galaxy, it is never named.

May/might..sure..but what is more likely and makes more...scientific sense? Option no1

BTW, I am not stupid.

I would never have guessed

[Snail]

May/might..sure..but what is more likely and makes more...scientific sense? Option no1

Subspace makes little scientific sense anyway. The Knossoses (uh oh I can see another plural thread coming) could do both. (as in, intersystem AND intrasystem)

I would never have guessed

Neither would I.

[karajorma]

May/might..sure..but what is more likely and makes more...scientific sense? Option no1

Trashman. You know **** all more about subspace than the rest of us so stop acting like your interpretation of it is correct. And judging from some of your earlier comments you probably know less about the way the real universe works.

You have NO proof whatsoever that you need a larger gravity well for longer distances. You can shout all you like that it is needed but it's complete and utterly bollocks. 

[Snail]

You have NO proof whatsoever that you need a larger gravity well for longer distances. You can shout all you like that it is needed but it's complete and utterly bollocks. 

Yeah there's less proof than that than there is for my Time = Mass theory.

[Jeff Vader]

Yeah there's less proof than that than there is for my Time = Mass theory.

Uh-oh. This is starting to sound almost like the UTELE theory, where Energy = Mass.

[Hellbender]

Everyone has their own pet theory.

Well, the gig is that the usage and priciples behind subspace travel were purposely left vague by

Without any more information than has been released, there's not a lot that can be actually taken as being canon. Anyone can yell as long and as loud as they like, but 42 is as valid a reason for how subspace travel works in Freespace as the Shivans weave jump nodes out of green cheese. Any one of the pseudo-scicentific theories presented can be as valid.

Discussing ways to make it sound plausible is cool, but the blind rock-headed stubborn insistence about who is right is more than a bit silly. It's not actually helping the discussion. An open mind and good imagination are a writer's primary tools, the same holds true for debating your thoughts.

The problem with star travel is that we currently do not have adequate ability to make the long distance trips in a reasonably timely manner. Because of this, we have only theories about how it will possibly work. Will this always be the case? Many think so, many do not. Is the problem going to be solved in my lifetime? Unlikely, but when I was a kid, home PCs were science-fiction, with the average computer of any power the size of a small house. Now I have one that fits comfortably in a pocket. Go figure.

When there is no real life analogue to use, we fall back on imagination. Few space games do not feature some method of system to system travel, and Freespace is no exception. To make it reasonably believable, invented subspace... and it gave them their universe. They were perhaps wise in not pouring too much cement around their story foundations. Haven't you ever read a good story only to have a discovery or technological advancement take some of the fun and wonder out of it.

[TrashMan]

May/might..sure..but what is more likely and makes more...scientific sense? Option no1

Trashman. You know **** all more about subspace than the rest of us so stop acting like your interpretation of it is correct. And judging from some of your earlier comments you probably know less about the way the real universe works.

You have NO proof whatsoever that you need a larger gravity well for longer distances. You can shout all you like that it is needed but it's complete and utterly bollocks. 

I will stop acting like my interprtation is correct if everyone else does the same....assuming I'm saying my interpretation is correct. Which I don't. I don't know that.

However, based on RL science, logic and what we know of the FS universe, some theories do make more sense than others...alltough that doesn't mean much since [V] can make their universe operate however they want.
As far as we know, subspace  many operate on spaghetti.

[karajorma]

Some make more sense than others. Yours do not make any more sense than any of the others presented in this discussion so stop with the nonsense about science and logic backing yours up. It doesn't any more than it back up the other ones.

As I've said science doesn't even back up your statements about the real universe.

[Vidmaster]

it's a game

As a matter of fact, I just tried to say

Let's calm down on the name calling people.

But doesn't matter, kara is right. Sorry.

Now this time, I want to set your attention back on the original subject: Other races!

Another space faring race in the vicinity of T.s and V.s would be strange, wouldn't it? Shivans leaving them alone?
Or sb. makes a campaign during which another race is discovered also fighting the Shivans. Maybe Capella coud be linked to this second Shivan front somehow. Anybody pursued that idea?

[Snail]

I was actually going to feature another species in my mod, which weren't the stereotypical "rivals of the Shivans" or "the Shivan's bigger, badder brother with a prison record," just another crappy species trying not to get EX-TER-MIN-ATED.

[TrashMan]

Some make more sense than others. Yours do not make any more sense than any of the others presented in this discussion so stop with the nonsense about science and logic backing yours up. It doesn't any more than it back up the other ones.

As I've said science doesn't even back up your statements about the real universe.

I'll believe that once you show me you PHDs in scientific fields Mr. Expert on everything.

[MarsNeedsWomen]

If I may quote a subspace drive manual I once read:

Engineers last week were avidly reading a pamphlet published by Arthur D. Little, Inc., a venerable Cambridge, Mass, chemical and engineering research firm. Title: The Subspace Drive in Industry. Excerpts: " ... Work has been proceeding in order to bring perfection to the crudely conceived idea of a machine that would not only supply inverse reactive current for use in unilateral phase detractors, but would also be capable of automatically synchronizing cardinal grammeters. Such a machine is the 'Subspace Drive'. "The original machine had a base-plate of prefabulated amulite, surmounted by a malleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving bearings were in a direct line with the pentametric fan. ... The main winding was of the normal lotus-o-delta type placed in panendermic semi-boloid slots in the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a nonreversible trem'e pipe to the differential girdlespring on the 'up' end of the grammeters. "Forty-one manestically spaced grouting brushes were arranged to feed into the rotor slipstream a mixture of high S-value phenylhydrobenzamine and 5% reminative tetryliodohexamine. Both of these liquids have specific pericosities given by P = 2.5C.n^6-7 where n is the diathetical evolute of retrograde temperature phase disposition and C is Cholmondeley's annular grillage coefficient. Initially, n was measured with the aid of a metapolar refractive pilfrometer . . . but up to the present date nothing has been found to equal the transcendental hopper dadoscope. ... "Undoubtedly, the Subspace Drive has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating nofer trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent skor motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration."

[karajorma]

As I've said science doesn't even back up your statements about the real universe.

I'll believe that once you show me you PHDs in scientific fields Mr. Expert on everything.

I'm referring to your ridiculously wrong assertion about the distance between galaxies earlier on this thread and your similarly ridiculous assertion about the viability of asteroid mining last month.

Both of which you could have proved wrong with 5 minutes on Google or even a modicum of actual knowledge of the real universe. I'm not claiming to be an expert. I'm claiming to know more than you. And if you're going to make easily disproved comments about real life subjects where you can be actually proved incorrect you're certainly not going to change my opinion on that matter.

In other words do some ****ing research before you next open your mouth about what things in this universe are like.

[AlphaOne]

oki ppl lets listen to what the ancients said about theyr empire : i think it went something like "for thousands of years we expanded " Or something like that .  I mean ppl the GTVA has managed to conquer what 20 or so sistems or rather colonize 20+ sistems in a few decades.

The Ancients had thousands of years at their disposal. Sure they must of been using some sort of FTL drive or something because we know this was before they discovered subspace.

Also please nothe that the Ancients while in terms of ships and weapons where on an equal lvl with the GTVA so to speak theyr susbpace tech was way ahead of that of the GTVA with the shivans beeing the only ones that could equal and perhaps better the Ancients in terms of susbpace tech and knoledge.

Also they said they conquered in galaxies they had no place to go. Ever wonder if perhaps the shivans are the weapon of choice by some advanced race? I mean the same way the GTVA uses ships that alien race could of waken up the shivans . I mean we already know the shivans did not evolve in this way and we already know they appear to be created rather then evolved.


Also please note another very important fact the Ancients themselfs said that they made the first attack against the shivans when they came across them. This is true of the other races in our galaxie but also the ancients say they either destroyed or enslaved.  This could mean that some sort of slave race of the Ancients could be right around the corner.


As for the Knossos we already have indications that the shivans mifght not be from this galaxy so it is safe to asume that the Ancients stumble upon the shivans in another galaxy.  Thsi could mean that the ancients might of used either the Knossos that we knos or some sort of advanced knossos the GTVA has yet to see since the Knossos not only stabilizes unstable nodes but can also force open new ones or colapsed ones.

[karajorma]

Quite a few people have mentioned that Vasudans might be the last remaining ancients. Now while I'm on the fence over that one it does raise a couple of interesting possibilities.

1) What happens when the GTVA run into a slave race? Assuming that they haven't developed subspace and been crushed by the Shivans there are probably a few out there. Some no doubt with a picture of exactly what the Ancients looked like. What will they do when they see a Vasudan?

2) If they are the Ancients does this have something to do with why Bosch was so certain that Terrans had no future with them?

[FUBAR-BDHR]

OK after the discussion so far here's my theory.  Remember it's just a personal theory not written in stone anywhere (at least not that we've found yet).

I'm making the following assumptions.

Ancients:
     Not from this galaxy
     Explored most of their galaxies usable systems and moved out into neighboring galaxies.
     
Shivans:
     Creatures that live in subspace
     Do not require node or anything else to travel to and from subspace
     Only use the subspace nodes to track and follow us.
     Attack any race that disturbers their domain
 
Vasudans:
     Slave race of the Ancients brought to Vasuda Prime from their original home world.
     
Terrans:
     Native to Earth but experimented on by the Ancients. 

Knossos:
     Device created by the Ancients to create subspace nodes.
     

Theory:

Ancients created Knossos devices to open subspace to them.  They left their own galaxy and made it to ours.  After exploring part of out galaxy and several others they invoked the wrath of the Shivans for disturbing their native environment.  Final battles were fought across the galaxies.  In a last ditch effort the Ancients tried destroying the Knossos devices to stop the Shivans.  This is why there are no Knossos devices in the nearby systems.  Unknown to the Ancients the Knossos devices once turned on for a period of time stabilize the node and are no longer needed.  The Knossos the GTVA discovered was one of the last built and never turned on.  The Lucifer fleet was a scouting mission to see what was causing new subspace disturbances.  When the Sol node collapsed it sent shock waves through subspace.  Maybe these waves hurt the Shivans just like dropping a stick of dynamite in a pond of fish.  Between FS1 and FS2 the Shivans assembled.  They would have come no matter what but when we created a new subspace portal the Sathanas fleet closest by was angered and attacked prematurely.  When the rest of the fleet arrived they saw us try to destroy a subspace node.  Fearing that we would succeed they came up with a way to counteract the subspace shockwave by destroying the star.  Their ships being capable of feeding off of a stars energy formed a ring and drew enough energy off of the star to make it collapse.  The resulting collapse resulted in the supernova.  Shivans go back into subspace to lick their wounds and build and gather an even stronger fleet. 

Will we figure out how to destroy the Shivans in subspace?  Will the Shivans figure out a way to prevent the destruction of the nodes?
Will the Vasudans find the truth about their true homeworld?  Does it still exist?
Are there other surviving races just around the corner?  Are they friendly?  Are they more advanced but smart enough not to use subspace?
Do the Shivans have masters or allies? 
Are there any Ancients left?  Could a few have survived on far off isolated worlds that don't have subspace nodes?


Just some things to think about and argue over for the new year.

[TrashMan]

I'm referring to your ridiculously wrong assertion about the distance between galaxies earlier on this thread and your similarly ridiculous assertion about the viability of asteroid mining last month.

Both of which you could have proved wrong with 5 minutes on Google or even a modicum of actual knowledge of the real universe. I'm not claiming to be an expert. I'm claiming to know more than you. And if you're going to make easily disproved comments about real life subjects where you can be actually proved incorrect you're certainly not going to change my opinion on that matter.

In other words do some ****ing research before you next open your mouth about what things in this universe are like.

So? I'm not always right...big surprise...you're acting like you were never wrong.
I don't always have time for research so I often fall back to my shoddy memory. Wow.. I bet that's unheard of in the circles of the allmighty Kaj!
I'm gonna open my mouth and say whatever I damn please and you don't have to like it bud.

[S-99]

It's fs. The shivans being the weapon of another race is dumb for fs. The shivans do not come from subspace, yet again this is also dumb for fs.

Fs really doesn't operate on the simpler principles of "lesser" overdone, overused, and slaughtered scifi universes. Fs really does and is something different in mind compared to other stuff.

[eliex]

 How can anyone live in subspace?
Isn't it . . . risky?

     Over time it could just collapse.