[Axem]

I think I might've gone a bit too far with "never understanding". They could recognize how we work and how we can communicate, but it'll still take quite a leap for them to get over the initial "that's not how we work."

I quite liked the Ender's Game series aliens. While physically familiar, their method of living and functioning is quite alien.

[TrashMan]

What's really ironic is that he's not even good at that science.

speaking of which, energy is a bunch of electrons..not the same things as atoms really.

You fail at physics.

If you're trying to tell me that atoms are made only of electrons and that there are no protons or neutrons, then it is you who fails...miserably.

Am I the only one finding it ironic that TrashMan tries to base his reasoning in science while arguing that science has been wrong before?[/quoteg

Obviously, it's not always wrong. Proven things are well..proven....wishful theories are...well.. pretty much just fancy talk till tehy are proven.

[WMCoolmon]

If you're trying to tell me that atoms are made only of electrons and that there are no protons or neutrons, then it is you who fails...miserably.

"Sir...the internet isn't made up of tubes."
"What the hell are you saying? That there's no internet? You're a fool if you think that."

Obviously, it's not always wrong. Proven things are well..proven....wishful theories are...well.. pretty much just fancy talk till tehy are proven.

So what's your proof that there's no such thing as an energy being? Remember that a lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack.

I think I might've gone a bit too far with "never understanding". They could recognize how we work and how we can communicate, but it'll still take quite a leap for them to get over the initial "that's not how we work."

I quite liked the Ender's Game series aliens. While physically familiar, their method of living and functioning is quite alien.

Agreed.

[General Battuta]

Um, Trashman, energy is photons, not electrons or neutrons or protons.

You may be thinking of electrical current. That's not really energy, it's movement of electrons between atoms.

[karajorma]

I thought he might have meant photons but it's clear from his response that he really meant electrons since he didn't correct himself. Besides AFAIK photons aren't what the energy is since they only apply to EM radiation and not things like kinetic or potential energy.

speaking of which, energy is a bunch of electrons..not the same things as atoms really.

You fail at physics.

If you're trying to tell me that atoms are made only of electrons and that there are no protons or neutrons, then it is you who fails...miserably.

Stop it! You're killing me!


On the other hand at least this explains the reason you're having such a problem with energy beings. I'd find a being made up of just electrons pretty hard to believe in too.

[General Battuta]

Hrrm, you've gut a point there. But kinetic and potential energy are inherent in all forms of matter/energy, so they're not really specific to 'energy beings.' If you included those types of energy in the makeup of an 'energy being', then we're all energy beings, since we operate on chemical potential and kinetic energy.

[karajorma]

Oh I agree but a comment like "Energy is just photons" is incorrect.

Similarly the MG Starborn or the races you have mentioned aren't simply EM radiation which somehow is intelligent. They do have physical forms. It's just that instead of cell walls and inter-atomic attraction keeping them coherent it's electrostatic and magnetic effects.

[Mura]

Just a bit confusing about the energy-beings thing (i think it's plausible but i got a bit confused with the definitions)
Energy: In physics and other sciences, energy (from the Greek ενεργός, energos, "active, working")[1] is a scalar physical quantity that is a property of objects and systems which is conserved by nature. Energy is often defined as the capacity to do work. Several different forms of energy, such as kinetic, potential, thermal, electromagnetic, chemical, nuclear, and mass have been defined to explain all known natural phenomena.

Then, like it was said already, we are all already energy beings after all.
Now, the definition of life is far more complex than that, and since there is no unified consensus on what life is whatsoever makes it all more hard to explain... by some definitions we could say that supernova stars are alive since they give birth to several new stars and we could call that reproduction...

Now for it to be intelligent is another business, we humans almost didn't made the jump into intelligence, it's believed that we became intelligent thanks to spare time to use our brains on something else than survival itself; and that could have happened to any other species!

I think it's not too hard to believe there might be other intelligent species out there, made of whatever material they might be, and whatever structure they are shaped from. Life has proven to be more stubborn than what we believe...

(phew, that was a long post, i hope it made some sense at all  )

[karajorma]

Just a bit confusing about the energy-beings thing

Hardly surprising considering that no one has properly corrected Trashman's basic incorrect assumption - that any creature living on a star has to be an energy being.

 Everyone else is basically saying life forms that lived on a star could be made up of plasma and use magnetic and electrostatic fields as a basic part of their make-up. The term energy being is commonly used for any such creature in sci-fi but it's a bit of a misnomer as that implies that they are completely made up of energy.

[TrashMan]

Stop it! You're killing me!

I only wish...


regarding plasma-based beings whose parts are shaped by EM fields - interesting, but something has to generate such fields and keep their shape.

To make the long story short, given that this topic sparked my interest I have looked it up and I'm not convinced.
Unless you can produce one such being you won't convince me.

If that makes me a redneck, close-minded idiot in someone's eyes..we'll, I wouldn't give a damn. No, correction - I'd actually be proud.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, something generates the fields and keeps their shape -- the plasma itself, as well as gravitational and nuclear-force interactions.

Karajorma's right: these beings living on the stars are, in part, matter, that being the plasma component. This is what the Starborn are.

There's no way you've actually looked it up and understood it without knowing some higher-order plasma physics. I know for a fact you don't understand that math, and goodness knows I don't.

[Snail]

Neither do the "esablished scientists" (and I very much question how established they are).
I'm not going to believe anything a few scientists say just like that, like it's a friggin word of God.
They have been wrong many times, even the majority was wrong for a long time.

Okay let's calm down in that case...

Established scientists still know more than you about science, so I would take their word over yours. You might be right in this case, but if my life depended on it, then I'd surely go for the "established scientists" rather than you. Their word might not be the word of God, but yours certainly isn't either.

This is why I think it is possible, not certain that energy life forms could exist. I suck at science and physics myself which is why I try not to start shouting out assumptions about stuff I can't even begin to understand.

[TrashMan]

Just FYI, for those who think my education sucks, and therefore my opinnions must also suck:
I always got straight A's in all scientific subjects - from chemistry to physics...and also in subjects like philosophy and logic.
I am lucky enough to have a absolutely GREAT Physics teacher* who happens to be one of the project leads at CERN, so he knows a lot of established scientiest (hands-on experts, that actualyl do work in labs, not just theorize the whole day) from around the world. He often invites experts from various fields to hold lectures - from nanotechnology, quantum computing, astrophysics, fluid analysis to god knows what not - and I attended any of those lecture I could, chatting away with  those people.

I many not be Einstein, but my knowledge of scientific stuff that interests me is way above average.
So no, I didn't come to this conclusion lightly...



*What's a good way to see if someone is a good teacher? If oyu have every incentive NOT to come to his lectures, yet you still do.
This year, he held classes about quantum mechanics and didn't demand that any of us come to his lectures. Additionaly, his classes were on friday, early in the morning - and due to the schedule it was the only subject that day at all. I'm also a traveling student, which means I travel home during weekends.
So I don't have to come to his classes at all, I can go home one day earlier and get a good night sleep..insted I choose to sta , get up early and come to his classes and chat away with him suring breaks. He's that good a teacher.

[karajorma]

And despite all that you thought energy was made up of electrons?

[General Battuta]

Look, TrashMan, none of us are saying that life on stars is inevitable. We're just saying it's physically possible.

Can you agree with that?

[TrashMan]

And despite all that you thought energy was made up of electrons?

In most cases, yes...electrons, photons, or ions... that's basically what energy is on a atomic level.

Look, TrashMan, none of us are saying that life on stars is inevitable. We're just saying it's physically possible.

Can you agree with that?

ERm...no. I consider it impossible.

[karajorma]

And despite all that you thought energy was made up of electrons?

In most cases, yes...electrons, photons, or ions... that's basically what energy is on a atomic level.

Funny how you've suddenly slipped in the photon as if you were talking about it the whole time.

[General Battuta]

Yeah. Also, you're wrong. An ion is an atom with one or more electrons stripped away by a dose of electromagnetic energy from a photon.

Electrons swapped between atoms make up electrical current.

The photons themselves are the only force-carrying particles in that list you've made up. They carry the electromagnetic force.

ERm...no. I consider it impossible.

*shrug* Well, you're wrong, and we've already explained why: plasma structures and electromagnetic life. I don't see any way to convince you without walking you through the math. But you're in the minority, and you go against well-established science that drives devices you use every day.

It's weird to see someone who's usually so rabidly in favor of technology suddenly begin denying a very realistic scientific possibility.

[Marcus Vesper]

And despite all that you thought energy was made up of electrons?

In most cases, yes...electrons, photons, or ions... that's basically what energy is on a atomic level.

Funny how you've suddenly slipped in the photon as if you were talking about it the whole time.

That's because he's employing the "retcon" debating technique.  With that said, I'm myself not a fan of energy based lifeforms in fiction.  I especially despise the notion that Shivans are energy-based lifeforms.  Unlike Trashman though, I won't attempt to argue that they're impossible.  I'll stick to arguing that they're lame instead.  Unless they're C'tan, in which case they're awesome.

[karajorma]

Claiming that Shivans are energy based is just stupid as they obviously have very physical bodies. As for other energy beings I think it depends on how the idea is used. I've seen some absolutely awful uses of the concept in the past (like any one where they can invade and take over humans) but that doesn't mean the basic concept isn't a good one.