[woodburner]

   I was planning a mission (the last one in the campaign i'm making) and I counted the ships, and there were 60 of them, including a modified Lucifer , 5 Sathanases (or is that Sathanae?) ,3 modified Terran cruisers and 45 bombers. I'm using a windows xp with about 3 gigs left. Will it work?

P.s. has anybody made a mission this big? Is there a bit TOO much apocalyptic chaos?

P.p.s Progress report: I'm finishing up. now. now I have just 1 Sathanas and a 10-odd wings of bombers w/ 100 waves each. I gave Alpha 1 flak guns and a big part in the fight.

[Jeff Vader]

including a modified Lucifer , 5 Sathanases (or is that Sathanae?)

Sounds a bit weird, having many many Shivan big ships like that, but I dunno. Your mission. And don't start this again. At least I don't want another 'What's the plural form of Sathanas?' debate.

Will it work?

Why are you asking us? Play it and see for yourself.

[Snail]

I was planning a mission (the last one in the campaign i'm making) and I counted the ships, and there were 60 of them, including a modified Lucifer , 5 Sathanases (or is that Sathanae?) ,3 modified Terran cruisers and 45 bombers (). I'm using a windows xp with about 3 gigs left. Will it work?

The plural of Sathanas is Sathanes (modern Greek), or Sathanai (ancient Greek).

As for whether or not it will work, it depends on whether you're using FreeSpace Open or Retail FreeSpace, as well as your detail settings. Large battles in FreeSpace Open with high-poly models and animated glowmaps on is not a good idea.

Also, how many kb is your mission? I've seen missions over 150kb in size (Karajorma's largest is 171kb AFAIK).

P.s. has anybody made a mission this big? Is there a bit TOO much apocalyptic chaos?

It depends, really. Mobius has made huge Battle of Endor-like missions with around four destroyers and about a dozen cruisers and corvettes which are still done very well. However, it is often seen as bad mission design to have too many ships involved at the same time, unless it is well-planned out, which is very hard for an inexperienced FREDder (no offense).

One way to see if it is a well-designed mission is to ask yourself this: Does the player make any difference? You can test this by simply parking your ship far away from the battlefield and watching the fireworks. Without your participation, the enemy ships should win. If the friendlies win 100% of the time without the player participating, then the scale of the battle is way too big and the player is sidelined, which is not good (obviously).

[karajorma]

The plural for the Sath is Sathanas Juggernauts. Ignore anyone who tells you differently as that's the only canon pluralisation.

Sathanases is linguistically correct but sounds ugly so many people avoid it.

You absolutely do not use the Greek plurals unless you want to look like a very amateur grammar nazi or simply don't care about being correct.

[Mobius]

The plural for the Sath is Sathanas Juggernauts. Ignore anyone who tells you differently as that's the only canon pluralisation.

A Rainbow Not-So Brite dude uses "Satanai" given the fact that the specified form is undoubtely correct. I don't really want to "kill" an old language by adapting its words to English ones. Sathanas Juggernauts is also ok.

It depends, really. Mobius has made huge Battle of Endor-like missions with around four destroyers and about a dozen cruisers and corvettes which are still done very well. However, it is often seen as bad mission design to have too many ships involved at the same time, unless it is well-planned out, which is very hard for an inexperienced FREDder (no offense).

One way to see if it is a well-designed mission is to ask yourself this: Does the player make any difference? You can test this by simply parking your ship far away from the battlefield and watching the fireworks. Without your participation, the enemy ships should win. If the friendlies win 100% of the time without the player participating, then the scale of the battle is way too big and the player is sidelined, which is not good (obviously).

You actually forget that... 1) BoE-ish battles are possible in INFA, thanks to the railguns and 2) All the ships you mentioned do not appear at the same time. In a normal FS2 environment you can't get something like that.

And does the player really have to make the difference? Giving the impression that the player is influencing the battle while everything is scripted to balance the player's actions(if he does well by saving a certain ship from destruction another ship won't use all its beams, the arrival of a ship can be delayed to balance the mission, etc. etc.) is a bad idea? In any case, you can't deny that BoE and BoE-ish missions will only be used for eyecandy and/or as "playable cutscenes" where the player doesn't really need to make the difference. It would be possible by giving him the possibility to give orders to a wing or two at max.

[karajorma]

If the player isn't making a difference to the outcome of the battle you have to question why you didn't just make the whole thing an in-game cutscene instead.

[Mobius]

The player isn't always supposed to make the difference. Alpha 1 is oftentimes sent to deal with fighters while the true mechanics of the mission are left to capital ships. The Great Hunt(FS2) is one such mission.

The same principle can be applied to BoE and BoE-ish missions: the player can simply go around killing spacecraft while eliminating hostile warships is up to allied warships. "Yeah but destroying turrets and bombers is what the player is supposed to do to change the outcome of the battle"...no, if proper events can balance everything.

[karajorma]

The player isn't always supposed to make the difference. Alpha 1 is oftentimes sent to deal with fighters while the true mechanics of the mission are left to capital ships. The Great Hunt(FS2) is one such mission.

The same principle can be applied to BoE and BoE-ish missions: the player can simply go around killing spacecraft while eliminating hostile warships is up to allied warships. "Yeah but destroying turrets and bombers is what the player is supposed to do to change the outcome of the battle"...no, if proper events can balance everything.

I'm not reading that or anything else you write till you put it back into a sensible font type.

[Mobius]

Uhm...

"The player isn't always supposed to make the difference. Alpha 1 is oftentimes sent to deal with fighters while the true mechanics of the mission are left to capital ships. The Great Hunt(FS2) is one such mission.

The same principle can be applied to BoE and BoE-ish missions: the player can simply go around killing spacecraft while eliminating hostile warships is up to allied warships. "Yeah but destroying turrets and bombers is what the player is supposed to do to change the outcome of the battle"...no, if proper events can balance everything."

[Snail]

Uhm...

"The player isn't always supposed to make the difference. Alpha 1 is oftentimes sent to deal with fighters while the true mechanics of the mission are left to capital ships. The Great Hunt(FS2) is one such mission.

The same principle can be applied to BoE and BoE-ish missions: the player can simply go around killing spacecraft while eliminating hostile warships is up to allied warships. "Yeah but destroying turrets and bombers is what the player is supposed to do to change the outcome of the battle"...no, if proper events can balance everything."

Then I don't need to play the campaign. I just sit and drink coffee while watching the fireworks.

It's a GAME, Mobius, not a movie. You are supposed to participate.

You absolutely do not use the Greek plurals unless you want to look like a very amateur grammar nazi or simply don't care about being correct.

Karajorma is not amused about my usage of Greek plurals.

[Mobius]

The player will always have to engage fighters for his/its own survival. He/It can fly an insignificant fighter, not a bomber able to turn the tide of the battle.

I have already mentioned The Great Hunt(FS2). The first missions are pretty much a "sit and wait". In Surrender, Belisarius! Iota can survive without a magistral performance of Alpha 1. It happens in m2 and m3. And what if you destroy all BFReds of the Sathanas in Bearbaiting? High Noon will just be a "sit and admire the fireworks" mission.

Overall, there are MANY missions in which the player is pretty much a spectator. You can partecipate to a campaign but nobody should give for sure that the player is important in BoE and BoE-ish missions.


About the plurals...when people are informed about the correct form...they should simply use them. No excuses, too many words(and languages) are being killed.

[Snail]

My point is that Battle of Endor missions are not to be done unless the player is involved. A mission with 29 cruisers and 50 fighter wings fighting against ten Sathanas juggernauts is pointless unless the player is involved.

Help me out here, guys, we all know BoE battles are pointless unless the player is involved.

[Mobius]

Normal missions might be impossible to accept. The player might have his/its importance in an indirect way(*cough* INFA m17 *cough*) or something like that. Don't consider a BoE or BoE-ish mission in which the player has a vital importance as something possible.

That would be against the concept of Battle of Endorish mission itself - since when a single pilot(except for Mobius 1, Galm 1, Gryphus 1 and all other Ace Combat characters)turns the tide of a BoE?!?

An what are you trying to say? We all know that the FS engine isn't able to support a BoE mission!

[karajorma]

You absolutely do not use the Greek plurals unless you want to look like a very amateur grammar nazi or simply don't care about being correct.

Karajorma is not amused about my usage of Greek plurals.

You can use whatever you like. Just don't encourage other people to be wrong.

Help me out here, guys, we all know BoE battles are pointless unless the player is involved.

I would but what's the point in joining an argument where I'm only reading half the posts?

[TrashMan]

It's a GAME, Mobius, not a movie. You are supposed to participate.

How is killing fighters/bombers not participating? A job of a fighter pilot is to follow orders, your regular pilot doesn't save the day every friggin mission.

There are dozens of ways a BOE mission can be made interesting. If you can't think of a few than I say you lack imagination.

You can fly bomber escort. You can fly intercept for the fleet. (and both will have some impact)
You can escort a ship out of the battle zone (during a slug fest and beams flying). You can hunt a very specific objective (destroy that subsystem on that craft. Kill that transport, it's a traitor).
You can even have a "Stay alive" objective as all hell breaks loose.

[Snail]

Normal missions might be impossible to accept. The player might have his/its importance in an indirect way(*cough* INFA m17 *cough*) or something like that. Don't consider a BoE or BoE-ish mission in which the player has a vital importance as something possible.

Oh, so INFA m17 is going to be some crappy BoE mission, huh?

Please, someone help me out here! How come every time I get into some discussion everybody gangs up on some stupid gastropod with a shell in the corner?

[Mobius]

TrashMan: Good point, but the number of wingmen following Alpha 1's orders should be contained to keep balance. Either too bad or too good orders can change the outcome of the mission.

Snail: And you should know something about the features I add to make the missions more interesting and less BoE-ish.

[Snail]

Either too bad or too good orders can change the outcome of the mission.

Yes, due to the player's intervention!

Snail: And you should know something about the features I add to make the missions more interesting and less BoE-ish.

Let's not talk about INFA here. You've already given out so many spoilers its frightening.

[Mobius]

That's why the number of spacecraft following Alpha 1's orders must be contained! What do you think, that in a BoE mission the player can give orders to virtually everything?

About INFA...you made it look like a n00bish campaign while we all know that it's the exact contrary.

[Snail]

That's why the number of spacecraft following Alpha 1's orders must be contained! What do you think, that in a BoE mission the player can give orders to virtually everything?[/b]

No, but to most fighters. The player must be able to do something to control the outcome of the mission (unless it's a "plot" mission, like Doomsday or Their Finest Hour)