Author Topic: proof of evolution  (Read 7849 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Offline karajorma

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Yep. Like I said people who haven't realised he's talking bollocks have simply moved from one example to another without realising that the whole damn idea is flawed.
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Yep. Like I said people who haven't realised he's talking bollocks have simply moved from one example to another without realising that the whole damn idea is flawed.

Huh?  I'm missing something here.  I'm just asking about complex systems that can't function while missing one part, and how, if that's the case, they could develop one part at a time and ultimately come out with this whole complex system.



ok, well lets look at it this way. lets say you want to make a "PECAN PIE" well you need 'P', 'E', 'C', 'A', 'N',  'P', 'I', and 'E'. ok now lets just assume that you have made one somehow, and thus you have the constituent letters, but now you find that you are lacking in some vital plumbing supplies, you need a "CLEAN PIPE" something totally unrelated to pecan pie, well if you look all you need to do is find an 'L' somewhere and you can take the parts you were useing for the pecan pie and make the clean pipe!
:)

just because removing one part causes a complex system to stop working as it currently does, it does not mean that it is totally useless without that one part.

I must be missing something here.  I don't understand this metaphor at all.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Yep. Like I said people who haven't realised he's talking bollocks have simply moved from one example to another without realising that the whole damn idea is flawed.

Huh?  I'm missing something here.  I'm just asking about complex systems that can't function while missing one part, and how, if that's the case, they could develop one part at a time and ultimately come out with this whole complex system.



ok, well lets look at it this way. lets say you want to make a "PECAN PIE" well you need 'P', 'E', 'C', 'A', 'N',  'P', 'I', and 'E'. ok now lets just assume that you have made one somehow, and thus you have the constituent letters, but now you find that you are lacking in some vital plumbing supplies, you need a "CLEAN PIPE" something totally unrelated to pecan pie, well if you look all you need to do is find an 'L' somewhere and you can take the parts you were useing for the pecan pie and make the clean pipe!
:)

just because removing one part causes a complex system to stop working as it currently does, it does not mean that it is totally useless without that one part.

I must be missing something here.  I don't understand this metaphor at all.

There's your question and answer. Complex systems aren't.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Huh?  I'm missing something here.  I'm just asking about complex systems that can't function while missing one part, and how, if that's the case, they could develop one part at a time and ultimately come out with this whole complex system.

Hemophiliacs of the world mock your example.
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I would imagine, so do all the poor souls with incomplete circulatory systems.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 

Offline Ghostavo

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I'm sure octopuses feel the same way about us and our eyeballs.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 09:11:55 pm by Ghostavo »
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Offline Bobboau

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I must be missing something here.  I don't understand this metaphor at all.

yeah, I was sort of jokeing around, the point I was trying to make is if you have a existing system that does something, adding a new part to it might not only add to it's complexity but also totally change what that system is and does. lets try another example, would you say a mouse trap is irreducibly complex? if you remove the wooden back board, the spring, the catch, the trigger, or the little arm of death, it will not work as a mouse trap. correct? well lets say you remove the catch, the metal thingy that holds down the arm down by getting stuck under the trigger. well as stated the trap will no longer function as a trap, however it would make for an exalent paper clip, you just lift up on the arm put the paper in and let go, the spring would hold the arm don and the paper would remain quite bound. and as you can see the jump from this stile of paper clip to the mouse trap is not very far at all.

so the point about irriducable complexity being BS is that, just because a system will cease to function if one part is removed does not mean that the system without a particular part can not function as something else. the issue is further clouded by things like the parts changing to better suit there new roles, perhaps several different parts merging into one part and becoming something totally unrecognizable.
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Offline karajorma

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Yep. Like I said people who haven't realised he's talking bollocks have simply moved from one example to another without realising that the whole damn idea is flawed.

Huh?  I'm missing something here.  I'm just asking about complex systems that can't function while missing one part, and how, if that's the case, they could develop one part at a time and ultimately come out with this whole complex system.

And you happened to pick blood clotting completely at random?

Like the claim that evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics used to be a favourite argument from people who understood neither theory the claim that blood clotting is complex system that couldn't have evolved on its own is a favourite rallying point of ID proponents. The example of bacteria flagellum was a favourite until it was disproved in a way no one could argue against. Behe stated that the flagellum was too complex to have evolved being made up of 54 parts which were completely useless on their own as proof of intelligent design. His argument was proved stupid when someone pointed out that there was another creature with only 8 of those parts. So everyone simply moved onto blood clotting instead of actually wondering whether his whole idea was wrong.

So it's one hell of a coincidence that you'd suddenly decide to post about it on a thread which had absolutely nothing to do with blood clotting.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 03:08:54 am by karajorma »
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Offline Bobboau

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hmmmmm... silence.....
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Offline karajorma

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Well Goatmaster got distracted by the whole Pascal's Wager thread but I'm still waiting to hear an answer too.
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Yeah, isn't this the stage of the evolution thread where the creationism proponent says, "Yeah that's a good point, I guess irreducible complexity sure is a crock of horse****! I really learned something today!"?

It's either that or the part where they stop posting. I can't for the life of me remember which.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Has anyone on HLP ever been convinced of anything positive in an evolution thread?
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Offline Bobboau

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I didn't know that's what we were basing our evaluation of them on...  :confused:
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline Mefustae

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Forums exist to facilitate discussion. Threads pertaining to the theory of Evolution and religious opposition to said theory prompt considerable discussion. Logic would dictate that such threads would be expected, encouraged encouraged.

Yet, threads on Evolution and Religion are looked down on. Why? Because a few dogmatic, religious thickies get their feelings hurt?

 

Offline Bobboau

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BTW it's never happened on HLP as far as I know, but I did see it happen once on WS.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline karajorma

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I don't think anyone who believed ID was ever convinced. I suspect a lot of fence sitters have shifted towards the scientifically accepted view. Watching ID proponents claim it's true and should be accepted only to see them actually prove unable to say what ID actually is generally doesn't do their position any good with the masses.
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Offline Janos

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Well Goatmaster got distracted by the whole Pascal's Wager thread but I'm still waiting to hear an answer too.

Well, in that particular thread he said he didn't believe in man-made global warming.
Perhaps that should raise a few flags.
lol wtf

 

Offline Kosh

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I don't think anyone who believed ID was ever convinced. I suspect a lot of fence sitters have shifted towards the scientifically accepted view. Watching ID proponents claim it's true and should be accepted only to see them actually prove unable to say what ID actually is generally doesn't do their position any good with the masses.


I thought Charismatic was convinced a while ago......
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Offline Mefustae

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I thought Charismatic was convinced a while ago......
As you can see, he had nowhere to go but up.