[FreeSpaceFreak]

Everyone agrees, the Shivans have way more advanced ships than we do. It's like comparing WW2 battleships to today's.
However, Shivan tactics are very simple. They just lob ships at us. You'd expect something better from a species with that kind of ships.

Could that be because:

a - Shivan vessels are manned by rookies, perhaps even (partly) by robots, who just don't understand anything about advanced tactics?

b - Their vessels are made by another species, the Shivans just operate them?

c - Up to you...

[Fearless Leader]

D- The smart ones that designed the ships died off because they did not have enough children, and left only the idiot ones alive

[Jeff Vader]

a - Shivan vessels are manned by rookies, perhaps even (partly) by droids, who just don't understand anything about advanced tactics?

Take back the droid part. Again, in Hall Fight we see creatures inside a Shivan freighter, and has explicitly stated that those creatures are actual Shivans. Conclusion: if the Shivans like flying around in transports, surely they'd fly any other ships as well.

[terran_emperor]

Or maybe  skimped on the AI...I mean, the AI engine isnt the best

[FreeSpaceFreak]

I'm not just talking about the AI, I'm talking about Shivan tactics as a whole. Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver? They haven't, IIRC. They just throw ships at us.

I won't take back the robot part. I KNOW we saw actual Shivans in that transport. The transport could even have been transporting Shivans. But that doesn't mean their warships can't be manned at least partially by robots. Remember, I'm not saying they are, I'm just saying they could be. It could explain why they didn't seem to bother about the ships which remained behind in Capella, for example.

@Leader: Who would be maintaining the ships, assuming the idiots can't?

[Jeff Vader]

I won't take back the droid part. I KNOW we saw actual Shivans in that transport. The transport could even have been transporting Shivans. But that doesn't mean their warships can't be manned at least partially by droids.

At least take back the word 'droids'. Droids are so... Star Wars.

Who would be maintaining the ships, assuming the idiots can't?

Concidering that the Shivans just keep throwing ships at their enemies, I don't think they're really interested in maintenance.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Allright, allright... I'll make it 'robots'. Just a minute...

[Snail]

I'm not just talking about the AI, I'm talking about Shivan tactics as a whole. Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver? They haven't, IIRC. They just throw ships at us.

They have multiple times in FS1. Fleet tactics in FS1 were very different from those in FS2.

[Vidmaster]

Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver?

RAVANA and SATHANAS INTRODUCTION MISSIONS !!! The Taranis incident! And do not forget the Lucy's backdoor trick into Vasuda Prime! Or the attack through the first Knossos!

EDIT: huh   posted an answer to that at the same time...

[Jeff Vader]

Allright, allright... I'll make it 'robots'. Just a minute...

Thank you. Sorry to nitpick but 'droid' really is a word invented by George Lucas, which is why at least I wouldn't want it to be mixed up with FreeSpace.

Now, on these theories. The way I think about this is that the Shivans are more or less capable to make advanced strategies and maneuvers and such, like the Taranis incident and, to some extent, the cargo depot raid where the GTA tried to acquire intelligence regarding Shivan shields. But, the Shivans rarely use such tactics, since most of the time their 'Throw ships at the enemy so much that it dies' strategy works, what with the numerous ships and shields and weapons. I'd assume that even the Ancients were exterminated just by attacking them without thinking too much about plans and the likes.

[Snail]

In FS1 they did that, but not to the same extent of FS2.

[Gamma_Draconis]

I wouldn't say the Shivan don't use any tactics at all. They have used ambush tactics before. On Pandora's Box on FS1, they ambush your wing when it was attempting to scan cargo containers. (Does anyone else think it's kinda weird that they would sacrifice dozens of cargo containers for a few fighters? Or how did Command retrieve the sensor arrays when there was a Cain class cruiser patrolling the area?) I would say the Shivan use of tactics, but the reason why most people believe Shivans don't use tactics is because of the endless waves of fighters, bombers, cruisers.... hell, they have of everything.

[Snail]

They're not just rabid killing machines, the Shivans DO think.

[TrashMan]

Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver?

RAVANA and SATHANAS INTRODUCTION MISSIONS !!! The Taranis incident! And do not forget the Lucy's backdoor trick into Vasuda Prime! Or the attack through the first Knossos!

EDIT: huh   posted an answer to that at the same time...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the GTVA planed that mission to lure the Ravana?

[Jeff Vader]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the GTVA planed that mission to lure the Ravana?

Depends on how you think about it. The GTVA did deduce that a Shivan destroyer was present in the nebula, but whether they deployed the corvettes to lure the Ravana out or just engage the two nuisance cruisers wasn't made that clear.

[blackhole]

Command isn't entirely that bright either, you know.

[Prophet]

But it was reasonable to expect Shivans to respond to two corvettes dishing out hell.

If you think what forces the GTVA had encountered at that point, it looked like they were dealing with just a destroyer and it's support vessels. Thus GTVA Command, though stupid, propably expected the generally aggressive Shivans to respond to GTVA's offensive (the corvettes) with considerable force. It that situation it propably looked likely the Shivans would commit their destroyer if they wanted to hold control of the nebula. This happened.

It was a good plan. And a logical thing to do in that situation. It did lure the destroyer out, and had it been a Demon GTVA would have probably handled it business as usual. But apparently they underestimated the offensive firepower of the Ravana.

[Bobboau]

Have they ever (canonically) lured us into a trap, or carried out a strategic manouver? They haven't, IIRC.

for the benefit of those who have not played FS1 I will attempt to recount the events of a particular FS1 mission.

you see in the earliest part of the great war GTA and PVN sensors were unable to even lock onto Shivan electronic systems, fighter craft were unable to target them. so a mission was drafted to capture some shivan stuff for experimentation purposes. a cargo depo was found and you were to lead a scan/capture mission. once in system there was nothing you just flew up to the cargo, but as soon as you got any ware near it, all the cargo containers detonated and fifty bajilion Shivan fighters and a Cain class cruiser (which at that point in the game was some pretty big ****) all jumped in and splashed your wing. it was an ambush.
in the next mission you were to capture the very same cruiser, a funny thing about that mission, after you disable the cruiser and start the capturing procedure, the fighters would always jump in about 2-3km away and about 30 seconds before the bombers, which jumped in real close. the fighters were trying to draw you away from the cruiser so the bombers could destroy it (so you couldn't capure it). but in actuality it was all a big ruse, they actually WANTED us to capture it, because while in route it made a transmission and we basically brought a Lucifer somoning beacon to the front door of one of our big research facilities.

see FS1 was full of this ****. FS2 not so much, was one of my biggest disappointments with FS2, and why I considered FS1 to be better put together, but less polished.

[Snail]

I did like the atmosphere of FS1 far more than the atmosphere of FS2.

There is also Hammer and the Anvil, where the Shivans only commit a small force to attack the convoy at first, but when they realize that they're carrying the shield prototypes they summon a much larger attack force of Basilisks to destroy it.

There's Shell Game, too, where the Shivans set traps for the Terran freighters by rigging cargo containers to explode when they are docked with.

Then in the Chasing the Ancients act, the Lucifer itself arrives to destroy an errant transport and a single science cruiser to stop you from getting the Ancient codes. Doesn't sound like indiscriminate killing to me.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

The Shivans are an alien race.  They are not human so just because we don't understand their tactics doesn't mean they don't use tactics.