Author Topic: Random physics question  (Read 5242 times)

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Offline Kosh

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Random physics question
Is there anyway to turn plasma into a useful energy source (other than the good old steam engine technique)?
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Random physics question
There are no energy sources. It's all just conversion from one form of energy into work. I don't know where you took the steam engine thingy, but even in steam engine, the steam is definitely not used for the primary energy storage.

AS far as plasma as "energy source" is concerned, I can only think of fusion, and that requires pretty specific kinds of plasma - it needs either deuterium-tritium mix, helium-3 plasma, or some other fusion-eligible materials in rather high concentrations to work properly. The only reason plasma is involved in this process, though, is that to achieve fusion, the electrons around the nuclei need to come off so the nuclei can hit each other freely. It's not plasma specifically that is required for fusion; fusion just requires high enough start-up energy before the nuclei hit each other forcefully enough to initiate fusion reactions.

Of course, if you throw a magnetically contained plasma ball at someone, he or she will definitely consider it as a source of energy as far as the damage caused by it is concerned... Same as batteries can be viewed as "sources" of energy for cars, cell phones, laptops and so on... even if it's just storage (ie. conversion of electrical charge to chemical bond energy and back again) from physical perspective.
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Random physics question
Quote
There are no energy sources. It's all just conversion from one form of energy into work.


That's kind of what I meant. How can you convert plasma (massive amount s of heat energy) into work (something usable)? What I meant with the steam engine thing is that even in nuclear power plants, all we really do is use the heat to boil water, so it's still just a glorified steam engine.

The thing is that fusion reactions creates enormous amounts of heat and some designs use plasma, so is there a better way to turn all that heat energy into work than boiling water?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Random physics question
Quote
There are no energy sources. It's all just conversion from one form of energy into work.


That's kind of what I meant. How can you convert plasma (massive amount s of heat energy) into work (something usable)? What I meant with the steam engine thing is that even in nuclear power plants, all we really do is use the heat to boil water, so it's still just a glorified steam engine.

The thing is that fusion reactions creates enormous amounts of heat and some designs use plasma, so is there a better way to turn all that heat energy into work than boiling water?

There are ways.

You can use it to heat another substance, which can then be circulated in a heat exchanger that can be found in pretty much all electric power plants based on producing heat, be it with burning, nuclear power, concentrating solar radiation with mirrors etc. Of course this is the glorified steam engine you speak of, but what isn't then. It's a good way, but with fusion reactor the temperature tends to be a problem of some extent, more so than on fission based nuclear reactors.

To deal with extreme temperature, which normal matter obviously wouldn't hold, fusion reactors that are known to work for some time use a torus-shaped magnetic field to contain the plasma where the fusion actually happens, to separate it from physical contact with the reactor walls. Of course the radiation will heat the inner walls, but that can be dealt with, if enough energy is transferred away from the core. Heat exchanger does exactly that - it cools the reactor core and heats up itself, it's pressure increases and you got yourself thermal energy from the fusion.

If you want to avoid the steam engine altogether, another possibility in case of fusion is that you can use induction to capture the kinetic energy of the charged particles coming from the fusion (mainly alpha particles, aka. Helium.4 nuclei). After all, movement of charged particles is current, right? You just need to make sure that the particles are guided to same direction via static magnetic fields, and all is fine and dandy - they will cause a current to induce to nearby coils.

Partially, you could also possibly use some kind of layer of photoelectric cells to try and capture the gamma rays from the reaction, but the problem with that is that you need a really thick stack of the cells due to high penetration of gamma rays.

Of course, if at some point the integrity problems are solved, you could basically build a frakking four-stroke internal fusion engine that replaces spark plugs with, say, a laser and the fuel injection system would spray a small cloud of plasma into a chamber, where it would be contained in the middle of the chamber... Then, bang the laser heats the plasma sufficiently to start a fusion reaction, the plasma heats up a lot, expands, pushes the cylinder down. Exhaust would consist of helium; the "only" problem would be the stray neutrons making the engine block and other components radioactive on slow or not-so-slow rate, depending on what kind of reaction was used.

Of course, seeing how four-stroke engines are most definitely not amongst the most thermally efficient devices, if there actually were a need to convert energy from fusion directly to kinetic energy, a stirling engine would be more viable solution.


By the way, it's a common misconception that plasma must be really hot and fiery and melt everything it touches instantly. It doesn't really do this because in most applications, plasma is not really that dense. But to achieve fusion, the plasma needs to be heated to really high temperatures to offset the lack of pressure - you can't very well compress 15 000 000 Celcius-degree plasma mechanically. Magnetic compression is a possibility, but it takes a lot of energy in itself. Thus as far as I know, the fusion reactors currently designed will use greater temperature than in, say, Sun's core, to replace the missing pressure element that is present on natural fusion reactors, stars, where the massive gravity well makes the static pressure pretty much uncomprehensible on the core.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 08:20:07 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Random physics question
thanks. By the way, how do you know so much about this? Are you a physics major?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Random physics question
thanks. By the way, how do you know so much about this? Are you a physics major?

I knew this all the way back to high school. I've always read a lot and more importantly, I have a knack of actually remembering stuff that interests me, even if I read it once or twice only. Fusion reactor is actually a very simple contraption in theory - just like nuclear bombs; it's the technological limitations that make it so hard to accomplish...

But, I do indeed study physics as well. :p
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Random physics question
Would it also be possible to use the plasma from a fusion reactor as a source of thrust?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Random physics question
Turn it into a weapon, use it to enslave a race, put said race on treadmills with threat of said weapon.  Attach treadmills to generators.  Don'' use more energy than is produced on "examples"
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Offline Stealth

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Re: Random physics question
Is there anyway to turn plasma into a useful energy source (other than the good old steam engine technique)?

yes... duh...

here


here


and of course...
here

 

Offline Hellstryker

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Re: Random physics question
That looks ALOT like the gattling gun in pax imperia...  :wtf:

 

Offline CP5670

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Re: Random physics question
If you're talking about the last thing, you can't call yourself a real gamer if you have never seen that. :D

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Random physics question
and even if you don't know, you should be able to infer from the rest of the post. :p
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Offline Stealth

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Re: Random physics question
lol i agree with CP...

anyone who considers himself a freespace fan should know what the last gun is ;)

 

Offline Koth

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Re: Random physics question
I never played Descent and I still consider myself a FreeSpace fan.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 01:25:06 pm by Koth »
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Random physics question
Would it also be possible to use the plasma from a fusion reactor as a source of thrust?

i dont think the impulse would be that high. mass would be low too so you wouldnt get much thrust. high mass of propellant and high specific impulse (velocity of propellant) = a **** load of thrust.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 04:44:11 pm by Nuke »
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Random physics question
High mass of propellant translates also into high mass of the ship which translate into extremely costly - and ultimately slow - flying gas cans.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Random physics question
To be more exact, high specific impulse != high mass of propellant, by definition of the impulse:

I = dp = dm*dv

in which dp is change of momentum (aka impulse) that the ship (dry weight, without propellant) gains when it uses all it's fuel, dm is the mass of propellant used and dv is the ejection velocity gained by the propellant, in relation to the ship.

To have good specific impulse, a space ship designer can choose either huge flying gas can, or they can increase the ejection velocity. Both affect the impulse of the ship in a linear way - if you double the amount of fuel, the specific impulse doubles. If you double the ejection velocity, impulse doubles. Do both, the impulse quadruples.


Obviously the increased ejection velocity is more cost effective, since

A: the ship needs less fuel to be capable of travels made by corresponding ships with smaller ejection velocity and more fuel

B: the reduced amount of fuel means that the ship is easier to construct, and it can have more storage space and payload for it's size, since the fuel and fuel tank structures don't require as much volume and mass.



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Offline Kosh

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Re: Random physics question
So with regards to my previous question, is that a yes?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Nuke

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Re: Random physics question
that all depends on the velocity of your plasma, and how much you can throw
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Random physics question
I'd say it's highly unadvisable to run the fusion on the rear of your ship so fast that it produces meaningful amounts of resulting nuclei to be used as a direct propellant.


I mean, yes, it could possibly work to a degree - but your ship better have some ruddy good radiation shielding. The mass loss in single fusion reaction from, say, deuterium+tritium -> helium + neutron is negligible, so within reasonable error bars you could say that when you insert a kilogram of fusable plasma into your engine, and assumign it fully fuses and is released as a propellant... you still have only about one kilogram of propellant to be used, but the energy released in the reaction would be ginormous, and it would probably result in your ship's rear section vaporizing (which, admittedly, can cause significant amount of thrust but I suspect it wouldn't be very pleasant ride, especially if it's not a one-way-ticket).

Also, a lot of the energy is released as gamma radiation from fusion, not to mention neutrons. You can't direct neutrons with magnetic fields (at least very easily...), and gamma rays just burst to every random direction from the reaction, so that's a significant energy loss that you can't convert into propulsion.


A better solution - EVEN with losses in thermal exchange - would be to contain the fusion-plasma in the reactor, trap most of the gammas into radiation shielding, which causes the reactor - including the shielding - to heat up and the thermal energy can be used to expand suitabe propellant to large volume and to be propelled backwards that way. This has the advantage of taking care some of the cooling of the reactor as well - at least while there's any propellant left. The propellant used could be liquid hydrogen, nitrogen or perhaps some inert gas like Xenon, Neon etc. In this scenario, certainly the fusion waste helium can be added into the mix, but you would still need a separate mass of propellant, the stuff coming from fusion is not really sufficient to offer a long term propellant source.

Of course, if the system could use helium, you technically *could* replenish your propellant storage slowly by converting hydrogen isotopes into helium, but you would need to run the reactor in some kind of full-power-idle mode a long time to get any significant amoutns of inert propellant (helium) and what more, since you need to get the fusion materials from somewhere anyway, it just doesn't pay off. :blah:

Another choice (more like what we seem to have in FS2 by the way) is to use the fusion reactor quite like any "normal" fusion reactor hooked to power grid, and use the energy into either propelling ions (or, fully ionized gas aka. plasma) - with electric field.
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