[Akalabeth Angel]

What's interesting is that such a script would free up normal shields.  Perhaps they can be used as RL directional ablative 'armor'?   I'm hopeful that the game engine can simulate more of the RL universe flavor than previously thought.  I'm sure that there would be a fair amount of tweaking and game balancing that would need to be done to give it the right feel.  But, knowing is half of the battle.

        The problem with normal shields is that you can't set specific values in any one direction so they'll be as you said universal. Which is fine for Leviathans but I think it would take a lot of the flavour out of using Interceptors. If we can get directional armour in another way I think it would be good to do it. Of course the whole template thing probably won't happen but whatever.

News: Brad is attempting to model the overlord on starshattermods. There's a small way to go, but he's progressing nicely!

         Not to burst anyone's bubble but does this Brad guy even care about Freespace? It sounds more like he's doing a Starshatter mod. And the models, well . . . I can certainly understand that they're some of his first models and everything but in terms of detail I think they're a little lacking for Freespace from what I can see. Just from reading the thread I haven't gotten the impression that's he at all interested in Freespace2 modding and while his ships are suitable for starshatter they don't seem suitable for Freespace. I don't know jack about SS but it looks like an RTS game akin to homeworld and doesn't look like it would have the player flying down the length of a 1km TOG Cruiser for example.

[starlord]

Actually, SS is a space sim game and it doesn't really matter whether the models are done here or there: getter robo G has been able to use starshatter models and to introduce them into freespace.

[zircher]

Aye, nothing wrong with models doing double (or even triple) duty if the author doesn't mind.  Even if it turns out that SS models are LOD1 models relative to FreeSpace, that at least gives someone a basis for creating more detailed models.  It's a lot easier to add nurnies and greebles to an existing model than to create the whole thing from scratch.  Heh, I even have greeble plug-ins for POV Ray and trueSpace lying around some place.
--
TAZ

No, I'm not making those words up.  :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeble

[Getter Robo G]

(Still lurking to follow project status)

Just to clarify I approached a few SS modelers and they provided their models in (usually) .3ds or .obj format so I could then use 3dexploration to save as .cobs and then tweak...

You cannot use SS ships as is, cause MAGIC(TM) is like PCS (but with no reverse formatting capability.
Instead of .pof's, SS uses .MAG's (the way SFC series uses .MOD's).

Understand?

[braddw25]

Not to burst anyone's bubble but does this Brad guy even care about Freespace? It sounds more like he's doing a Starshatter mod. And the models, well . . . I can certainly understand that they're some of his first models and everything but in terms of detail I think they're a little lacking for Freespace from what I can see. Just from reading the thread I haven't gotten the impression that's he at all interested in Freespace2 modding and while his ships are suitable for starshatter they don't seem suitable for Freespace. I don't know jack about SS but it looks like an RTS game akin to homeworld and doesn't look like it would have the player flying down the length of a 1km TOG Cruiser for example.

First of all, this Brad guy is interested in preserving the Renegade Legions in any game engine whether it be starshatter or Freespace2 or something else. I'm also interested in learing how to do 3d Modelling, so I thought this project was a natural place to start after being introduced to it by Starlord. Thanks for your most constructive and helpful comments for improving my models. Maybe in the future instead of being casually dismissive, you could be a bit more specific in telling me exactly what needs to be added to bring the models up to your high standards. Just let me know, and I'll be happy to give it a try. I'm just learning, as of 2 weeks ago I didn't know the first thing about 3d modelling. I didn't even know what program to use. So it's really great that after spending money for a 3d modelling program and spending countless hours learning how to use it only to have to read wonderful comments like this. I would also not be so dismissive of Starshatter, because the scenario you just described would easily be possible in that game engine.

[starlord]

Hi brad, let me get that beam for you:



Hope you'll like it there.

Actually, despite having initially thought of a freespace MOD, I think starshatter might also be very interesting for renegades: especially with that cap ship sim (who wouldn't want to direct leviathans)?

Now, what I suggest right now is to make this a joint project. I'll gleefully give the starshatter community my story plans or other needed items for a sharshatter "vae victis" version.

I'm also you chose to model RL stuff as your first models: I think this alone deserves recognition.

[Vasudan Admiral]

Thanks for your most constructive and helpful comments for improving my models. Maybe in the future instead of being casually dismissive, you could be a bit more specific in telling me exactly what needs to be added to bring the models up to your high standards. Just let me know, and I'll be happy to give it a try. I'm just learning, as of 2 weeks ago I didn't know the first thing about 3d modelling. I didn't even know what program to use. So it's really great that after spending money for a 3d modelling program and spending countless hours learning how to use it only to have to read wonderful comments like this.

Don't get discouraged and don't worry about it - for someone who's around two weeks into modelling and has already UVed and textured it, you're lightyears ahead of most people.

Just keep working at it, making every new ship better than the last and soon enough you'll be set.

From what I can see in your pics, I would suggest you focus on the mesh detailing side of things first and get practice with making more and more complex models. That way you reach a point where you can switch your learning focus to be on the UV mapping and texturing side of things without it slowing down the complex modelling improvments. Complex modelling is hard to learn and will just take practice, but the UV mapping and texturing sort of follow on from it - so it's probably the most important aspect you can work on.

Do modelling tutorials when you can and look at other peoples models to see what processes or features you could incorporate into your own things, and don't hesitate to ask questions here or wherever else if you do run into trouble.

[Getter Robo G]

Brad, you're one of these "2 week guys" huh?

    I hate that... 

More power to you!   

Welcome aboard, I hope you find an equally enjoyable experience with FS2 and our little community.

I've seen your work and very impressed, just keep at it. The whole point is NOT what other people think (This ain't sci-fimeshes.com PEOPLE!) It's about you getting pleasure about your work as interpreted by YOU!

Meshing is like 49.5% of the battle in Modding while Texturing is 49.5% and Ship data is 1%

The key is to NOT get frustrated when you have a problem in one of those areas and instead get help from more experienced members of the community.

IF you have a skill in one of them however minor, don't take critics to heart, you can always improve.

A mesh can always be more detailed(Greebled), a texture can always be replace, new data written. Ect..

I hope you share more of your future works with us beyond the RL genre if you decide to hang with modding!

I'd be more active on the SS forums if I had the game (the only thing stopping me from doing something there is that I have no possible way to purchase it online, I have to physically buy my games. That means Walmart or the mall for me...)

[zircher]

Along the line of sharing between engines and all, Brad, if you're interested in any of the fighter models that I have created (either to use directly or modify to your heart's desire) you're more than wecome to them.  I have .x meshes of them zipped up on the Renedage Legion Yahoo group.  They're in the files section in the TAZ folder.  If you need them in another 3d modelling format just hollar and I'll what I can convert them to.

I think having multiple RL modellers running about doing good works is great no matter the format.  :-)
--
TAZ

[starlord]

Yes: it helps to preserve the RL genre in a way!

[Getter Robo G]

True, but a cool design is a cool design regardless the context so hopefully the rest of us can get a hold of them also... 

[starlord]

you expect me to say: No! Those designs are FASA's proprety?

I guess it's all go!

[Akalabeth Angel]

First of all, this Brad guy is interested in preserving the Renegade Legions in any game engine whether it be starshatter or Freespace2 or something else. I'm also interested in learing how to do 3d Modelling, so I thought this project was a natural place to start after being introduced to it by Starlord. Thanks for your most constructive and helpful comments for improving my models. Maybe in the future instead of being casually dismissive, you could be a bit more specific in telling me exactly what needs to be added to bring the models up to your high standards. Just let me know, and I'll be happy to give it a try. I'm just learning, as of 2 weeks ago I didn't know the first thing about 3d modelling. I didn't even know what program to use. So it's really great that after spending money for a 3d modelling program and spending countless hours learning how to use it only to have to read wonderful comments like this. I would also not be so dismissive of Starshatter, because the scenario you just described would easily be possible in that game engine.

           Hey Brad, sorry, it wasn't my intention to offend you though I can see how you would be offended (just as I would be offended in your shoes). I got the impression from the Starshatter thread that you weren't interested in Freespace because there wasn't really any mention of it in your posts. My comments were neither constructive nor helpful but I honestly didn't expect you to ever read them. If I was going out to hurt your feelings I would have created an account on your other forum and been a jerk there. Don't let me being an ass discourage you from continuing. And I also don't know a damn thing about Starshatter so I was just going from what I saw in your screenshots which looked to me to be similar to something like one of the Star Trek games for example (an RTS).
           But anyway, I hope that clears things up and alleviates some of your misgivings.
       
           And as a disclaimer, I'm not exactly a hot **** modeller myself. If you've seen the two fighters i've posted in the thread, those are just my fourth and fifth models respectively (though the 3rd one I did doesn't really count imo, so let's say 3rd and 4th). So I probably have a lot of problems or inefficiencies with my own models myself.


           Anyway, all that being said, what program are you actually using? It looks like you're modelling both sides of the Starship. With most programs you shouldn't need to do this. Most should have something like a "mirror geometry" tool which means you just need to build one side of the starship and then the program will copy it over to the other side and you then link it together (merge the vertices). It's pretty clear from the mismatched fins on the Overlord that you didn't use any such tool. If you program has it, (check the help files), it will literally cut your work in half and will result in a more symmetrically accurate (ie identical) model.

           Secondly, if your program has the ability to import image planes as reference use it. Renegade Legion is good in that all ships have at least one-side on view, many ships have more than that. So if you crop the little ship out of the image and import it can help immensely with getting the model more accurate proportion-wise.
 

           EDIT - and if your program doesn't have mirror geometry tool, there are other ways you can do it. Ie, you can duplicate the mesh, create a locater, parent the mesh to the locator, give the located a scale of -1 in the appropriate direction and kablamo the mesh will basically be mirrored (though you might have to position the locator on the edge (it the mid-axis running down the ship). A locator btw is a uh, basically a reference tool in Maya, so it's an object which doesn't have gemeotry but who's sole function is to aid in other parts of the program. So it sounds like you're using "Magic"?? or something, it might be called something else under that. 
           

[Akalabeth Angel]

       I spent some time last night thinking about turrets and today I whipped something up:





       A ten-firepoint Laser Bay
       I tried to make it as simplistic as possible without looking too boring. I originally had much more detail in it, on paper, until I did the math and realized some of the astronomical polygon counts there'd be. Even this one leads to some pretty high counts for turrets alone with the larger ships. The Venatrix, the grand daddy of all laser-bay ships would need 120 of these things (assuming that many turrets were even possible in FS2) which would mean like 17000 polygons for the freakin gun bays alone. So . . I dunno, something to look at anyway.

      But the average ship would be a lot more reasonable. The Fulgur as an example, since Brad has worked on it, would need 14 or so of these which would be around 2100 polys. In terms of reducing the count, the first obvious thing would be to delete the middle section or at least the raised ridge line. Or something else might be to have one trench per 5 lasers rather than each having their own individual depression. Or even one trench per two lasers, actually yeah, the one per two might work . . . .I just had an idea for another design which might look both interesting and have less detail so I'll try that out later tonight or tomorrow but at the moment I've gotta go watch Indiana 4

      Oh, depending on . . how the game handles destroyed versions of subsystems, I might also look at making destroyed versions of the gun. But maybe like 4-5 different versions. The turrets would all look the same, until destroyed, then they'd look a bit different but would use the same textures probably. I personally was envisioning the bays as being inset into the ships a bit instead of just stuck on top. But if they just disappear when destroyed it leaves a big empty trench. BUT, that being said, if the destroyed only increases the polycount it might not be worth it.

[gevatter Lars]

I think you guys could realy use some normalmaps to keep the polycount low.
I think a basic shape with a good normalmap could give you much more, concidering the number of bays you need, then even a midpoly bay could give you.

[braddw25]

Angel,

No hard feelings. I appreciate your apology, and in all fairness to you I should probably in the future refrain from reading posts when I'm suffering from an end of the school year Tequila hangover. 

Now, as for the rest of your latest post, now we are getting somewhere. This was constructive for sure, because I didn't even realize before you told me that those tails were mismatched. I am using Milkshape to make my models, and I do in fact build one side first, and then mirror it as you suggested. I must not have had the one face poly selected on the tail when I duplicated it and mirrored to create the other half. I didn't even notice it after I had posted that image, so thanks very much for pointing that out. I'll get right on to fixing it. Any further suggestions are most welcomed as well. I have looked at your fighter models, and I think they look great. I also thing it would be great if we combined efforts of the SS and FS communities as Starlord suggested so that we could perhaps have some of your fighters flying one day out of the Fulgur or the Overlord. To that end, I would like to let everyone here know that any models that I create are free to be used, tinkered with, changed, improved or whatever else you think might need to be done in order to improve them. I know that I am a novice at best when it comes to modelling, and especially texturing which I really just don't have a knack for at all. So if anyone else would like copies of my models so that you can make them better, just let me know.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Now, as for the rest of your latest post, now we are getting somewhere. This was constructive for sure, because I didn't even realize before you told me that those tails were mismatched. I am using Milkshape to make my models, and I do in fact build one side first, and then mirror it as you suggested. I must not have had the one face poly selected on the tail when I duplicated it and mirrored to create the other half.

     Hmmn, I dunno about Milkshape but with Maya one thing I found is that . . if you Mirror Geometry and the computer automerges it sometimes it'll screw stuff up. I found that when it mirrored it, it would merge vertices for no good reason. So while I mirror the geometry, I always merge the two halves manually because it just screws up for whatever reason. I dunno if it only screwed up along the axis or not. Also in Maya there's a thing where you've got like Edge mode, Face Mode, Vertices Mode and Object mode. I always mirror in Object mode so everything's selected.

   
    As for your other models, honestly I'm not sure how much detail you have on the Fulgur because it's a bit hard for me to distinguish with the texture you've got on there. I don't necessarily want to nitpick details when you're just starting out. I think on the whole your model is a bit broader than the drawing suggests, and also for major details it's missing the sort of inset engine area at the rear between the two dorsal fins. Adding something like that to your model would make it a bit more visually interesting from above.

I think you guys could realy use some normalmaps to keep the polycount low.
I think a basic shape with a good normalmap could give you much more, concidering the number of bays you need, then even a midpoly bay could give you.

     I'm not really sure what you mean by normalmaps. I've heard of 'em before but, they don't mean much. Are they like bump maps but for games or something similar? I figure some of those fancy HTL maps would be used eventually to bring out even more detail.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Eh, here's a slightly different laser bay. Saved a whole 8 polygons. Whoop-de-doo.
Will have to look into the normal maps thing a bit more.





A bit on models:


I'm not speaking about anyone's models in particular, but just in general. Personally, I think the models should probably lean on the more detailed side of things. Now that's just for a number of reasons.

1. In the forums for example, here, you often have people saying "Hey, anyone got some cool Shivan ships??? (Shivans are the badguys of Freesapce2) to which people reply "oh yeah, check out this, this and this and this from, for example, Inferno Release 1". (Inferno is a mod which includes a lot of new ships, shivans included) To which people reply, "hmmn, those are too ugly and low poly. Why can't I get the new Inferno ships or something similar??". Basically, I think the Freespace2 community as a whole has sort of come to expect a bit more detail on the models than what one might find in the original FS2. If a large part of the audience is Freespace 2 users, part of making the mod appealing is to adhere to something approaching the new sort of standard.

2. I've seen a few mods, Inferno included, where basically they've got a bunch of ships modelled. And they look decent, but not particularly high poly. Then some guy or a bunch of guys decide "wow, these models look pretty dated. Maybe we need to go back and spruce them up". And then they go back, reset the clock, and basically start all over again. I don't know how long I'll be involved in this mod, but if I'm here 2 years down the road I don't want everyone to suddenly decide "hey, you know we're done 40 models now. But they're kind of dodgey, why don't we redo all of them and basically throw away all of our progress." Stuff like that kills projects.

3. Personally, I find it easier to remove detail than to add it. Adding in some little fancy greeble takes me a little while, deleting it takes all of 30 seconds. If a model, like the Saxum is a little over the top in detail I can always go back in and trim the unneeded stuff fairly easily. It's easier for me personally to do a revision like that, instead of trying to work overtop of what I already have and basically . . . re-acquaint myself with the model before trying to tackle and rework whatever detail I want in there.

4. Also, personally, I actually use Maya (my 3d software) professionally on an everyday basis. Not as a modeller, but as an animator. But pushing my skills with the software and trying sort of new and detailed things is both good for whatever I'm working on and good for my skillset in general. So if I have a little too much fun with some models, it's not such a bad thing because it can possibly contribute to things like my portfolio, etcetera to help my career down the road.


       But for me #2's the big one. It's better to go too far than not far enough. That being said, any progress is good progress. Zircher's come in and seemingly brings with him the core set of all the fighter models. Some of them might get up-detailed, some might get replaced, but having them at all is of great benefit because they can more easily be put in the game. Part of any MOD is of course the missions and the game itself, and with so much difference between RL and Freespace there's a lot of need for in game testing of different things.

      Some of the things that might be included for example: Flicker Shields, directional armour, interia-style movement, different style of ship weapons, etcetera . . . . some of the fighters for example, are just as slow (or fast) as some of the ships. How's that going to play out? How will missiles work, can a person get any of the fancy other systems working? Chaff missiles, ECM pods, anti-missile guns, etcetera.

[gevatter Lars]

Well I am not good at explaining but here is a small article about normalmapping
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping

This image shows what can be done.

[starlord]

However, we have to be careful: newton like inertia is known to render a game difficult (XF5700 mantis) especially with non assisted firing.

I know what you are going to say, and I know it's not a real referrence point, but jacob was freespace like in game mechanics (not newtonian). Are we sure newtonian flight is part of RL? (I mean, sure there's drag, but there is drag in freespace and WC also actually).

Of course, I could be wrong, or why not (If it's possible) do the same thing as in starshatter: let the player decide to activate newton or non newton flight in game?