[starlord]

One of the most beautiful ships of the RL universe has been done by bradd of starshatter comm: The TOG xerxes frigate carrier. Go check it out.

Edit: just in case: http://www.starshattermods.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=8&thread_id=391&rowstart=0

[starlord]

Again new ships in the starshatter shipyards: the shiva (on the works) and the kenderson fighter.

feedback requested.

[Akalabeth Angel]

How's your bumblebee?

[starlord]

Still working on it, but it seems I'm going to have to stop during july: I've got a study report to fill in in UK. I'll be gone during a month.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Still working on it, but it seems I'm going to have to stop during july: I've got a study report to fill in in UK. I'll be gone during a month.

        Why don't you post a work-in-progress screenshot of the fighter, so people can help you out with an issues you might be having?

[starlord]

Well actually, I remember having deleted my efforts 3 times in blender, because t was quite frustrating to mess up the mesh and not correct it: I'm currently on the lookout for other software tools. I'll keep you informed though, however, since I'm starting work tomorrow up till the 31 of august, you might have to wait a bit.

Also, wdboyd of starshatter has requested the use of the saxum and Idis models: i think he would like to see how they handle in the game: Might it be possible for you to give them angel?

[Akalabeth Angel]

Well actually, I remember having deleted my efforts 3 times in blender, because t was quite frustrating to mess up the mesh and not correct it:

     You ever heard of ctrl-Z?

Also, wdboyd of starshatter has requested the use of the saxum and Idis models: i think he would like to see how they handle in the game: Might it be possible for you to give them angel?

     Nope.
     They're not textured.

[starlord]

Ok, some other time then, no pressure.

Also, wdboyd has rendered the manubalista fighter.

[Akalabeth Angel]

     I sent the fighters to wdboyd anyway, since he just puts some simple textures on them himself it probably shouldn't matter. I still need to texture them for Freespace though regardless of what he does.

 
     If you're having problems with the models and couldn't fix it you should post some screenshots, so you can get help from people with the issues you're having problems with. Some people are here are blender gurus too. Starting a model, getting frustrated, and ditching it doesn't get you anywhere.

[starlord]

I'm not ditching it, I'm simply gonna compare several software tools that might make me model this fighter. wdboyd once mentionned wings3d...

[Akalabeth Angel]

The Pharetra Corvette (TOG)





         This is the TOG equivalent of the Viper Corvette from StarWars. Basically a small dedicated carrier who's main purpose is to give 6 fighters FTL capability.

         Think I need to redo the rotating portion of the turret a little bit so it doesn't look dumb when it rotates. The engine flaps, armour cowls or whatever they are can articulate or be destroyed as they're separate. Also while I'll probably send this to Starshatter, but for Freespace I'm going to do a more detailed version which has fighter bay doors which open up. I'll post pics of that when it's done (maybe by Monday) So the Bay doors can open up and the Toggie fighters can fly out for combat. And I'll also need to do another pass of the model to clean it up a bit to cut down on polygons.


         Btw for any experienced modellers out there, if you see me doing anything wrong please feel free to interject and offer your opinion. I'm not sure if I'm adding more detail than is necessary, especially with regards to curved surfaces like the fore section of this particular ship. I'm not even sure if that turret's going to work now that I think about it. It normally has 3 direct fire firepoints and one secondary weapon. But I think multi-part turrets have a firepoint limit of 3?? Or maybe because the missile firepoint is fixed, that'll be even more wierd. I'll have to look into that anyway.

[starlord]

Wow, that's great looking angel. Here's the TOG's smallest carrier

Also, sorry if I'm wrong, but if there's one turret only, how can it protect it's underside from fighters?

[Akalabeth Angel]

Wow, that's great looking angel. Here's the TOG's smallest carrier

Also, sorry if I'm wrong, but if there's one turret only, how can it protect it's underside from fighters?

      It can't.
      Hence the text "A Pharetra should be a relatively easy kill for any medium or heavy fighter squadron"

[Akalabeth Angel]

As a matter of interest I've added a page to the wikipedia about the MOD: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Renegade_Legion . Not much information on there, but at the moment there's not much to say so it's good enough me thinks.


Re: The Pharetra

    It's not a combat vessel. It's a fighter transport. The Pharetra's main purpose is to give FTL capabilities to a squadron of Spiculums (though I assume other fighters 130tons or less could also be carried on board). If the Pharetra engages in combat, it's basically already lost the fight. It's only intended to stave off a few light fighters perhaps. Basically any mission would be as such:

1. Enter the System from T-Space
2. Launch Fighters
3. Fighters fly insystem and perform mission
4. Rendevous with and Land Fighters
5. Leave the System

     Regarding the blind spot, if it does in fact have to engage in combat. Assuming at least two Corvettes are part of the mission, one of the Corvettes could fly inverted so its turret points downward while the other ship's points upwards. Essentially the two craft can try to cover one another's blind spots. Or perhaps another Corvette like a Cingulum can tag along for escort. But basically it's main defense is the fighters it carries. If the ship is ever caught without its fighters, it's toast. And the Commonwealth will have 6 or so TOG fighters offering their surrender fairly soon thereafter.

[starlord]

True that this is the way I see it: the cingulum is much more potent against interceptors, despite being a small corvette. And then again, it could be paired with a meteorum assault corvette...

Also, I'm woundering, do you plan to animate the launch doors? Is this only possible?

Also IIRC, any light to med fighters with the 130 ton restriction can be fitted into pharetras, and also pharetras can be carried on some leviathans (leviathan carrying pharetra carriers carrying fighters). Actually, some designs can even host up to escorts (cataphractus) while able to host the 3 corvette types (pharetra, meteorum, cingulum) and 2 gunboats (adscriptius, adscriptius-M).

Also, to give the corvette a fighting chance, I recommend the auto hard point to be equipped with TGMs (mark 1 or 2) so that the missiles may circle the ship and present a small menace to fighters.

[Akalabeth Angel]

True that this is the way I see it: the cingulum is much more potent against interceptors, despite being a small corvette. And then again, it could be paired with a meteorum assault corvette...

Also, I'm woundering, do you plan to animate the launch doors? Is this only possible?

Also IIRC, any light to med fighters with the 130 ton restriction can be fitted into pharetras, and also pharetras can be carried on some leviathans (leviathan carrying pharetra carriers carrying fighters). Actually, some designs can even host up to escorts (cataphractus) while able to host the 3 corvette types (pharetra, meteorum, cingulum) and 2 gunboats (adscriptius, adscriptius-M).

        Meteorum Assault Corvette? You got stats for that, never heard of it? Nor the Cataphractus or Adscriptus.
        The doors can probably be animated open, launching the fighters might be a bit harder though. Rather than hangar bays the ship might have 6 dock points with one fighter docked to each. Will have to see.


        I'm not sure what Leviathan designs you're looking at, unless there's some new ones in the Nighsthift games release. But in terms of the Capital Ship Briefing, no TOG Leviathan can Carry the Pharetra. Of the Cingulum and Pharetra, only the Falx and Colossus can even carry the Cingulum. The Pharetra is too large for both. Though "Reinforcements" adds a "Cingulum Magnae" which is small enough to be carried by most every ship apparently as it's under the 1000 ton norm.
 
        EDIT - Oh I see for Interceptor 2e they've minmaxed a lot of the Corvettes so they'll fit into a standard bay. That's kinda cheesy imo, and goes against the fluff text of the Falx or somesuch ship which specifically say's it's a unique ship because it can carry FTL corvettes. Still don't know where this Cataphractus and other things you're looking at come frmo. I only see the Meotorum, though it's cool that there's a few Kessright designs. http://coyotegames.com/renleg/int/int-b.html

[starlord]

Actually, I'll stick to the 2nd edition rules, as carrying small ships is a very interesting concept me thinks.

Besides, one CW ship has been described in the brief as able to carry solstices (and described the carrier carrier tactic to deploy fighters) and even FTL escorts (I'm thinking of the derviche from gathering storm), so the contrary should also be true, even if we stray oh so slightly from cannon: It would still be coherent...

Also, the cataphractus and adscriptius are creations of mine (after all, RL games have shipyards do they not? and we need those classes): Basically, the cataphractus will be an answer to the derviche: think of a bigger corvette with an A spinal, 4 10 gun bays, 4 turrets and 12 fighters (med maximum), of course, FTL capable. It would range 3000 tons).

The adscriptius will be a "demi" corvette (I think it's also nicknamed "cutter"): Basically a collection of varrying forward guns (with the possibility to include weapons unmountable on fighters (except perhaps on kessrith fighters) as far as calibers are concerned, Hardpoints (although not autoloaded in the standard adscriptius) and 2 turrets, not FTL capable and usually deployed in base defence roles in numbers to swarm attackers, about 500 tons).
The adscriptius M would be more of a missile boat to complement the adscriptius with the remouval of much of the cannons and the installation of auto hard points).
Also, it's a breach from cannon I know, but as an assault corvette, I would like to give the meteorum FTL capability, Also, perhaps (I'm not sure yet) it could be interesting to provide a TOG equivalent to the angel transport corvette for tank carrying operations, especially since those ships could be carried in leviathans (contrarily to the big war transports carrying infantry and big numbers of tanks or the cargo/freighters) and would give those ships the capability to engage combat on the ground.

I heard also about utilitary crafts like the "hero" marine shuttle (could be useful in capture operations) and life boats (although we could use FS's hermes... I don't know).

EDIT: in leviathan there is an escort ship silhouette in the stat sheets: We could perhaps use it's general form for the cataphractus...

[Akalabeth Angel]

I don't have a problem with Leviathans carrying small ships if those ships can actually fit into their bays. The Corvettes under 1e rules cannot fit into most Leviathans. And really, a Corvette like the Cingulum or the Pegasus isn't an escort. It's a patrol ship. In your standard Leviathan engagement, a Cingulum or a Pegasus is a waste of money. It's just going to get slaughtered, because it's not built for combat it's built for patrolling. If you read the descriptions of those two Corvettes, you'll see that both of them are patrol ships and their crews are bored to death most of the time.

A Gunboat like the Meteorum is a different matter. It's basically a very heavy fighter, or a bomber of sorts. It doesn't need an FTL because most of the time it'll just supplement Leviathan fighter forces. Something like this could even be player flyable. Renegade Legion isn't like Freespace, travelling through T-Space can take a long time depending on how far you're going. A gunboat is built for combat, if you add an FTL it wastes weight and power, plus all the other room and storage you need for living facilities, etcetera. A 1000 ton Corvette with FTL requires 100 tons for the FTL alone. For a gunboat, that 100 tons would be better spent on weapons. The Meteorum is also described as an assault unit against heavily defended KessRith systems. Well you're not going to assault with Gunboat forces only, and no Leviathans. So why would it not be FTL capable?

RE: The Cataphractus. I assume you're making this an escort, since a Corvette cannot carry a Spinal mount or Bay weapons. Not to mention the fact that a Spinal A is 250,000 tons which is probably a little hefty for a 3000 ton Corvette to carry. Escorts are basically small Destroyers. And there'd be little reason to carry them in another Leviathan.

In the Distant Fire book, TOG invades a certain world but when they bring their troops they don't bring them on Leviathans they bring them on Transports. Leviathans are warships, they don't have the room to carry a sufficient quantity of Marines and Tanks to invade a planet. You need dedicated transports. Tog certainly would have an equivelant to the Angel, but the Angel type probably isn't really used that much in an invasion. Grav Tanks are anti-grav, they can enter an atmosphere and even fight in space if required (though very poorly). Tanks aren't carried to the surface, they're released in orbit and fight their way to the surface of the planet under their own power while getting cut to ribbons by defending interceptors.

But yes, there's certainly a need to create transport shuttles and assault shuttles with marines, and small gunboats like the Meteorum etcetera to fill the small bays of many warships. Some Leviathans are specifically mentioned as carrying marines and assault craft. This background story should be emphasized to give the ships character rather than simply giving every Leviathan the same capabilities to carry exactly the same ships. Leviathans are tous le même as it is, with the same armour and rough speed for all of them.

[gevatter Lars]

I have got my copy of Sins of a solar empire yesterday and thought it would also make a nice basis for a Renegade mod. It has all the weapons you need. Including laser batteries. Only small clusters of 4 per bay but it could still simulate a bigger battery very well.

[starlord]

However, I have problems assessing the situation: gunboats should be 500 ton craft (ship cutter) and the meteorum is both a 1000 craft and described as a corvette (although it lacks FTL). Also, the power rating of the meteorum is superior to the gunboat class in general.

Perhaps as a testbed in kessrith territory the meteorum was deployed in a gunboat role (parhaps before the devellopment of the adscriptius) and also perhaps the kessrith were more able to defend against hit and run raiders given the heavy firepower in their ships (that's why it would have been used as an ambusher in "graveyards"). However, even with 100 tons added for the FTL drive, it could still be carried aboard leviathans and use it's firepower in hit and run tactics. The meteorum is too strong to be a gunboat anyway: it could cripple a cingulum and even damage an escort as it is.

I say add FTL to the CWfront version of the meteorum and leave the gunboat roles to the adscriptius and M variant. Anyway, that's how I (for what that means) feel it  

On the other hand, your comments regarding escorts seem right: perhaps it would be exaggerated to carry some on leviathans (or else, perhaps in the last stages of my story where new techs are brought to bear, but we'll have time to discuss this later). Anyhow, you are right regarding this: I would see leviathans (big ones like the illustris or other heavy units) capable of carrying gunboats (cutters) up to all corvettes (small, assault (TOG), fighter carrier AND tank carrier (varrying configurations according to what the situation need be and according to bay space: Don't expect to find a pharetra in a fulgur).

Also, what about a TOG tank carrier corvette called the harpy?

At last regarding tank corvettes: you are right: planetary invasions will mostly call for specific ships (like war transports: think of them as big FS triton freighters carrying infantry and tanks in a big pressurised container, freighters and cargo ships).
However, they would give the opportunity to leviathans to push a bit on the balance should they choose and when needed.

To lars: Hmm, why not? But I'll stick to those mods (they are more than enough work already). And also, strategy is very good and I encourage it, but I WANT to blast my shiva or overlord to sithmereens.
I truly hope you can understand the feelings or a relentless space sim fan.

Oh, and another thing: shouldn't we "add" a safeguard system to the pharetra to give it a fighting chance while no one's watching?