Author Topic: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq  (Read 16794 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I don't believe you. Suppose you were the president. A man in a black trench coat offers you $10 million if some guy who's criticizing his operation was snuffed out. $10 million would be decades' worth of Presidential salary, and nothing would happen to you if you did it. Think about what you could do with $10 million. Think long and hard. Now you see why autocracies lend themselves to incredible corruption and plunder?

Unlimited power turns honest men into murderous assholes.

Only the weak willed ones. That man in the black trench coat would find himself in Guantanamo for even making me such an offer.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
What country in the world wouldnt be bombed? :D
Australia! Woo!

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I don't believe you. Suppose you were the president. A man in a black trench coat offers you $10 million if some guy who's criticizing his operation was snuffed out. $10 million would be decades' worth of Presidential salary, and nothing would happen to you if you did it. Think about what you could do with $10 million. Think long and hard. Now you see why autocracies lend themselves to incredible corruption and plunder?

Unlimited power turns honest men into murderous assholes.

Only the weak willed ones. That man in the black trench coat would find himself in Guantanamo for even making me such an offer.
I don't think any human being has a will strong enough to resist such money, including myself. When you have the opportunity to become rich beyond imagination by screwing people, you will, sooner or later.

What country in the world wouldnt be bombed? :D
Australia! Woo!
Sorry, but the Stolen Generation means you're getting blown up too.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline Sarafan

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
What country in the world wouldnt be bombed? :D
Australia! Woo!

Wasnt that that country that criminals were shipped to?

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I don't think any human being has a will strong enough to resist such money, including myself. When you have the opportunity to become rich beyond imagination by screwing people, you will, sooner or later.
That's a pretty bold statement to make. I can't be stuffed looking it up, but i'm willing to wager there have been quite a number of benevolent leaders throughout history. Moreover, it's actually pretty arrogant to imply you have a bead on the moral stature of over 6 billion other people.

You may turn into a greedy douchebag in that situation, but that doesn't mean everyone would. And truly, there is no greater government than one led by a benevolent dictator.

Wasnt that that country that criminals were shipped to?
Horrific punishment, too. Sending criminals to this virgin paradise on the other side of the world.

****, people must have been lining up round the block claiming to be Jack the Ripper!

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Wasnt that that country that criminals were shipped to?
Horrific punishment, too. Sending criminals to this virgin paradise on the other side of the world.

****, people must have been lining up round the block claiming to be Jack the Ripper!

They weren't really enthusiastic about the diseases, starvation, lack of water, forced labor, inhumane treatment, and possibly hostile Aborigines.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Oh, so you have no proof that he was acting under CIA authority but you're going to say it as if it were undisputable fact, even though even the Guardian said he was no longer a CIA member.

So you're saying that because the American government has found a suitable cat's paw and can bring political pressure on their allies to release him whenever he is caught that makes it okay then as long as he isn't an official member of the CIA?

By not extraditing him the US has made itself complicit in his acts. Notice how America refused to extradite him to Venezuela even though he's wanted for terrorism in that country and they have a long standing extradition agreement with that country? Now imagine the stink the Americans would cause if 20 years from now Venezuela had someone connected to 9/11 in their custody and refused to extradite him. Funny how it's a different matter when it applies to terrorists within their own borders.

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If we should send people to prison for pardoning people like this guy, then let's send Gerald Ford and Bill Clinton there too, since Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, who was caught red-handed, and Bill Clinton pardoned convicted criminals.

Yes. Let's. I see no good reason why the executive should have the power to trump the judicial branch. It makes a mockery of the entire system if presidents can pardon each other for any crimes they are found guilty of committing. It fosters the creation of an old boys network where any president knows that he can do whatever the **** he likes no matter how illegal safe in the knowledge that the next president will pardon him in order to get the same treatment when he loses power.

But the simple fact is that I didn't actually say anything about sending the people who pardoned him to prison. I said he should be in prison. We're talking about a man who bombed beaches in order to prevent tourism to Cuba. A tactic which the US decries when it happens in Egypt but ignores when it happens in Cuba.

Horrific punishment, too. Sending criminals to this virgin paradise on the other side of the world.

****, people must have been lining up round the block claiming to be Jack the Ripper!

Don't mess with the UK.

We'll **** you up real good! :p
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 05:15:00 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I don't think any human being has a will strong enough to resist such money, including myself. When you have the opportunity to become rich beyond imagination by screwing people, you will, sooner or later.
That's a pretty bold statement to make. I can't be stuffed looking it up, but i'm willing to wager there have been quite a number of benevolent leaders throughout history. Moreover, it's actually pretty arrogant to imply you have a bead on the moral stature of over 6 billion other people.

You may turn into a greedy douchebag in that situation, but that doesn't mean everyone would. And truly, there is no greater government than one led by a benevolent dictator.

And there is no greater economic system then wealth falling out of the sky, and no greater car than one that goes 0-60 in two seconds and gets 400 miles to the gallon.

Look around you. The world is packed with greedy douchebags scrambling to grab and enlarge the tiny amounts of wealth and power they currently possess. Who would pick the dictator, and how? What could you do if you ended up with a bad one? How would you protect your rights from being crushed by him?

The United States was unrivalled at the end of the 18th century world for having the right to openly criticize the government and demonstrate against it. The United States was also unrivalled for not having an autocracy (except for France, which ended up with one shortly thereafter). It is human nature for people to abuse whatever power they get, so the guiding principle of democracy is to limit abuse by distributing power widely.

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Yes. Let's. I see no good reason why the executive should have the power to trump the judicial branch. It makes a mockery of the entire system if presidents can pardon each other for any crimes they are found guilty of committing. It fosters the creation of an old boys network where any president knows that he can do whatever the **** he likes no matter how illegal safe in the knowledge that the next president will pardon him in order to get the same treatment when he loses power.

But the simple fact is that I didn't actually say anything about sending the people who pardoned him to prison. I said he should be in prison. We're talking about a man who bombed beaches in order to prevent tourism to Cuba. A tactic which the US decries when it happens in Egypt but ignores when it happens in Cuba.
The power of the president to give pardons is protected under Article II, section 2. I'm not really saying that not extraditing him wasn't wrong, I'm saying that it was not illegal, and that it's not the same as the CIA sending an operative under orders to assassinate Fidel Castro. And to my knowledge, Richard Nixon is the only president who has ever been pardoned, and Gerald Ford committed political suicide in doing so. The pardon was most likely an act of realpolitik to antagonize Hugo Chavez. Realpolitik is one of those unfortunate realities we have to live with in international affairs.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 05:30:06 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Except that harbouring terrorists is illegal.

How is the US harbouring a known terrorist any different to the Taliban harbouring Bin Laden? Well except for the obvious difference that the US actually had their terrorist in custody at the time and chose to let him go.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I don't think any human being has a will strong enough to resist such money, including myself. When you have the opportunity to become rich beyond imagination by screwing people, you will, sooner or later.

Speak for yourself. Money holds little interest for me.. I'm a low-mantainance person (in other words, I'm perfectly happy with just a few basics - PC+internet connection, roof over head, food   ---> arranged in order of importance)

And I despise people that misuse power with all my heart. Just the very THOUGH raises my blood pressure. Death is too good for them!
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
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Bush had two chances and the "people" (the people the first time, the people and the majority the second time) chose him to lead both times.


I'm surprised you would say that considering the massive vote fraud that happened in both elections.
I've seen evidence that it was a close race in Florida, but I've never seen evidence that there was fraud. I'd personally dismiss any notion of fraud if the candidate was relatively popular and was elected from a different party than previously held office. I get suspicious of multiple presidents from the same party who all successively win the office. How's it gone in the past 50 years? Two terms of Republican, two terms of two Democrats, two terms of two Republicans, one term of Democrat, three terms of two Republicans, two terms of Democrat, and now two terms of Republican. That's starting with Eisenhower and ending with W. Bush. It includes the assassination of Kennedy and the scandal with Nixon. Either way, we have usually been due in for a change when things aren't going so well.

This is not a typo, right?
Which part of it?

Saying that Kerry or Gore are worse than Bush... I mean...c'mon. That has GOT to be a joke. :lol:
I think that both Gore and Kerry would be worse as a president than Bush. We've had Bush for nearing 8 years now--we can debate all we want about his actions. We have never had Gore or Kerry in office--we can only judge them by their running platform and what the votes finally said about them. The senior Bush won about 53% of the popular vote and 79% of the electoral college. After than, in 1992, Clinton won about 43% of the popular vote (Republicans won 37% and Ross Perot won 19%) and 69% of the electoral college. Four years later he won 49% of the popular vote (republicans had 41% and Ross Perot had 8%) and 70% of the electoral college. Now, Bush had one of the closest elections in recent history. He won just under 48% of the popular vote (just over 48% for democrats, about 3% for Nader) and just over 50% of the electoral college. Close one, no? Popular vote definitely went to the Democrats, though he won the electoral college. Anyways--the decision ultimately was in the Supreme Court and Bush won by 500-some votes in a machine count. Now in 2004, he won a clear majority of both popular and electoral votes. That we can't argue over--he clearly won in 2004 and he's still president now.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I've seen evidence that it was a close race in Florida, but I've never seen evidence that there was fraud.
You should look a tad harder. There was rampant fraud in both the '00 and '04 elections. Although for some reason it was played down a great deal in '04, what with the Democrats not really bothering to put up a fight post-election.

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Except that harbouring terrorists is illegal.

How is the US harbouring a known terrorist any different to the Taliban harbouring Bin Laden? Well except for the obvious difference that the US actually had their terrorist in custody at the time and chose to let him go.

Frankly, I don't give a **** about international law, only laws within nations.

International law is complete joke because it cannot be applied to anyone with any real military or economic power or even a nation that would be impractical or even inconvenient for the prosecutor to violate the sovereignty of (Kim Jong Il, stop building those nukes or we'll tell you to stop again!), the US has an absolute veto on the security council, and the interdependency of Western nations makes serious economic penalties on any of them damaging to all the others. I will recognize the legitimacy of international law when a real world authority can enforce it rather than point their finger and say "that's illegal".

The Hague Court should be disbanded and a more effective solution for international disputes pursued. You can only have rule of law when enforcing laws is actually practical or even possible. I consider an inequitable or unenforceable legal system an illegitimate one. I consider this guy to be a murderer and the US to be in the wrong in pardoning him, but international law is so impotent that I have no respect for it. Also, now that he's pardoned, we can't un-pardon him.

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Speak for yourself. Money holds little interest for me.. I'm a low-mantainance person (in other words, I'm perfectly happy with just a few basics - PC+internet connection, roof over head, food   ---> arranged in order of importance)

And I despise people that misuse power with all my heart. Just the very THOUGH raises my blood pressure. Death is too good for them!
Now you're being irrational. Richard Nixon was an asshole who lied under oath and had burglars break into the Watergate. He was not a murderer, nor a child molester, nor a traitor. What, exactly, would have justified killing him? Righteous indignation? This is the mentality that fuels witch hunts and lynch mobs. Never mind that a separate justice system for politicians would be completely unconstitutional.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 06:31:35 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Frankly, I don't give a **** about international law, only laws within nations.

So in other words the Taliban were well within their rights to not give up Bin Laden and the US are the aggressor in an unjust war on Afghanistan right?
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Frankly, I don't give a **** about international law, only laws within nations.

So in other words the Taliban were well within their rights to not give up Bin Laden and the US are the aggressor in an unjust war on Afghanistan right?

No, because the lack of legal protection applies to the Taliban as much as anyone else. International relations are effectively anarchic, and if you really don't like something, then it's up to you to stop it. Which is pretty much what we did. Your sovereignty in a war situation exists only if you can defend it. If some nation really hated what we are doing in Afghanistan, they would have to try to stop us either unilaterally or in an alliance. This has pretty much been the way things have been done for all of human history. You can't have rule of law unless you have a higher authority to keep and enforce the peace, and is capable of doing both of those things. Our present system is capable of neither on an international level.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 07:51:39 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline Kosh

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
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President Bush's term is almost up, and there's no way he could cheat his way out of leaving office like Putin did or the police would drag him out in handcuffs and the media would rip him to pieces (Vladimir Putin has almost entirely suppressed the Russian independent media). Even Richard Nixon left office voluntarily, and he was far more corrupt than any other president in history. Not to mention the Democrats have control of Congress and are set to win the presidency as well. Bush's goose is quite cooked by this point.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/04/30/bush_challenges_hundreds_of_laws/

Considering that he has said several times he was above the law, I wouldn't be surprised if he would give it a shot, but I doubt it because his poll numbers are so low. Even if he doesn't he has certainly been setting up the framework for such a power grab for his successor.

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Because only the Republicans commit vote fraud. Yeah, right.
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/more-democrat-vote-fraud-convictions

I didn't say they were the only ones, but the biggest examples were from the republicans.


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I don't believe you.

You just don't know me that well. :p Make me dictator of a nation and I'll prove it to you.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Quote
I don't believe you. Suppose you were the president. A man in a black trench coat offers you $10 million if some guy who's criticizing his operation was snuffed out. $10 million would be decades' worth of Presidential salary, and nothing would happen to you if you did it. Think about what you could do with $10 million. Think long and hard. Now you see why autocracies lend themselves to incredible corruption and plunder?

Unlimited power turns honest men into murderous assholes.

Here is what I am interpreting from your posts there: All humans are weak, stupid, greedy, and evil little creatures. Now let's let them govern themselves in a democracy.

If all humans are as weak and greedy as you say, then everyone as a whole would be no better in Democracy than in a Facisim. The only difference is that in a Facisim, all of their petty wants and desires aren't being fulfilled.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Seems like business as usual to me. Simply with more deniability by saying they're ex-CIA.  Since that article was written Posada was released. Meaning that the US is illegally harbouring a terrorist who killed 73 civilians by blowing up their plane. Funny how the war on terror only applies to terrorists who kill US civilians isn't it? :rolleyes:

I'll agree he needs to be extradited, but I don't see any evidence he couldn't have done it on his own.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I'm not saying he did it with the direct help of the US but it's pretty obvious he knows that the US will never actually charge him or extradite him. And his is not the only case of this sort of thing happening. If you look at the US's actions in relation to Cuba it's been more of a terrorist state than Libya, Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan.

As I said before he's quite obviously a cat's paw. The US can claim "We don't do stuff like that any more" while simultaneously watching terrorists achieve their aims. 

No, because the lack of legal protection applies to the Taliban as much as anyone else. International relations are effectively anarchic, and if you really don't like something, then it's up to you to stop it. Which is pretty much what we did. Your sovereignty in a war situation exists only if you can defend it. If some nation really hated what we are doing in Afghanistan, they would have to try to stop us either unilaterally or in an alliance. This has pretty much been the way things have been done for all of human history. You can't have rule of law unless you have a higher authority to keep and enforce the peace, and is capable of doing both of those things. Our present system is capable of neither on an international level.

:lol: So you insist on restraining the power of petty tyrants to do whatever they want in their own country but they should be able to do whatever they like to a foreign one. I assume that you're also against the Geneva Convention then since that's an international law?

And if someone decided that they'd had enough of the US and bombed you back into the stone age you'd simply say "Fair enough"?
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I think that both Gore and Kerry would be worse as a president than Bush. We've had Bush for nearing 8 years now--we can debate all we want about his actions. We have never had Gore or Kerry in office--we can only judge them by their running platform and what the votes finally said about them. The senior Bush won about 53% of the popular vote and 79% of the electoral college. After than, in 1992, Clinton won about 43% of the popular vote (Republicans won 37% and Ross Perot won 19%) and 69% of the electoral college. Four years later he won 49% of the popular vote (republicans had 41% and Ross Perot had 8%) and 70% of the electoral college. Now, Bush had one of the closest elections in recent history. He won just under 48% of the popular vote (just over 48% for democrats, about 3% for Nader) and just over 50% of the electoral college. Close one, no? Popular vote definitely went to the Democrats, though he won the electoral college. Anyways--the decision ultimately was in the Supreme Court and Bush won by 500-some votes in a machine count. Now in 2004, he won a clear majority of both popular and electoral votes. That we can't argue over--he clearly won in 2004 and he's still president now.


Wait, wait! You you're equating the number of votes with how good a president they would be? :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
That's the most broken and insane  violation of logic I have seen in my entire life....well..almost. You get second place.
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