Author Topic: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq  (Read 16795 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Now you're being irrational. Richard Nixon was an asshole who lied under oath and had burglars break into the Watergate. He was not a murderer, nor a child molester, nor a traitor. What, exactly, would have justified killing him? Righteous indignation? This is the mentality that fuels witch hunts and lynch mobs. Never mind that a separate justice system for politicians would be completely unconstitutional.

ERm...no.
Who's advocating a separate justice system for them? Only far harsher penalties within the current one.
And yes, I consider that as bad as high treason - in fact, even worse - willfully breaking an oath given to the millions, misusing you power and effectively working against the very people you're supposed to protect and care for.
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Quote
:lol: So you insist on restraining the power of petty tyrants to do whatever they want in their own country but they should be able to do whatever they like to a foreign one. I assume that you're also against the Geneva Convention then since that's an international law?
I think that if nations want to agree on something together, they can work it out among themselves, not via some farce of a governing body whose "law" applies only to  those too weak to resist. You don't seem to be getting the idea that the nation who is attacked can fight back. Whether it's wrong or right is an entirely different issue.

As for the Geneva convention, couldn't it be adopted internally by each nation, or the nations could develop their own protocols for prisoner of war treatment and rules of engagement?

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And if someone decided that they'd had enough of the US and bombed you back into the stone age you'd simply say "Fair enough"?
Well, "bombed back into the stone age" implies nuclear weapons, so that means it's time to roll out the Trident missiles.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I think that if nations want to agree on something together, they can work it out among themselves, not via some farce of a governing body whose "law" applies only to  those too weak to resist. You don't seem to be getting the idea that the nation who is attacked can fight back. Whether it's wrong or right is an entirely different issue.

Oh I get it. I just think it's a fancy way of you saying that you think strong nations should be allowed to bully weaker ones with no fear of repercussion other than retaliation from another strong nation. Now while that might be what actually occurs I fail to see how anyone who has been claiming that Democracy is the best form of government for a country can then turn around and claim that fictionalisation into regional warlords is the best system for the world.

Surely you see the irony there?

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As for the Geneva convention, couldn't it be adopted internally by each nation, or the nations could develop their own protocols for prisoner of war treatment and rules of engagement?

That's meant to be the point with international law. Each member state is supposed to go back and pass their own law which makes the international one the law in their own country.
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Oh I get it. I just think it's a fancy way of you saying that you think strong nations should be allowed to bully weaker ones with no fear of repercussion other than retaliation from another strong nation. Now while that might be what actually occurs I fail to see how anyone who has been claiming that Democracy is the best form of government for a country can then turn around and claim that fictionalisation into regional warlords is the best system for the world.

Surely you see the irony there?
What I'm saying is that international law is completely useless at preventing stronger nations from bullying weaker nations, especially since the stronger nations rely on each other economically and are pretty much unable to do anything to each other militarily. The idea of global justice is an illusion that wastes time, resources, and money.

I think it's stupid and wasteful to think it is even remotely possible to have anything but anarchy between nations. Nations work because on that level the government can use force to suppress disturbances of public order (even the most minor police action is a use of force--if you resist, the officer can and will drag you to the ground and cuff you). That just doesn't work on an international level--nobody has the will or capacity to send troops to bash down another nation's door whenever they do something unpleasant.

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That's meant to be the point with international law. Each member state is supposed to go back and pass their own law which makes the international one the law in their own country.
Yes, but how do you stop those states from deciding not to follow those international laws? There are countries who ignore international judgements time and time again, not even necessarily strong countries. Nothing but military force can stop these people, much like imprisonment is the only way to stop many criminals, and the first world lacks the ability to go kill people and break things in Sudan, North Korea, etc. The stronger countries often have too strong principles to continually ignore international law (i.e. they follow it only because they want to), and if they were to decide otherwise, nobody would be able to do ****--not even economic sanctions, because it would seriously mess up everyone else's economy.

International law is a futile charade that masks the reality that it's still the law of the gun between sovereign nations. Unless we get a world state or Earth ends up administered by some extraterrestrial power, it will always be that way.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 11:01:15 am by Woolie Wool »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
This whole debate started over you saying that the US doesn't do illegal things like sending assassins into other countries. Surely you see that this is an international law then ratified by the US government?
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Point conceded. But there's still the issue that it would be illegal to do anything to him as we've given him a pardon and can't reverse it. A sort of catch-22.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
The US didn't pardon him. They refused to extradite him. Panama pardoned him, for a different crime, no doubt based on US pressure.

Funnily enough the reason they refused to extradite him was because as he is a terrorist he might be tortured. :rolleyes:

The REALLY funny thing is that it's almost like the US has forgotten what happened last time it trained up a bunch of people to fight off communist rule. It's almost like the think the Mujahideen just went away after the Russians pulled out.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 02:13:40 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
It all seems to me like a convenient way for the US to issue a "**** you!" to Venezuela than state sponsored terrorism. But it is wrong, and I think something should be done to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Now you're being irrational. Richard Nixon was an asshole who lied under oath and had burglars break into the Watergate. He was not a murderer, nor a child molester, nor a traitor. What, exactly, would have justified killing him? Righteous indignation? This is the mentality that fuels witch hunts and lynch mobs. Never mind that a separate justice system for politicians would be completely unconstitutional.

ERm...no.
Who's advocating a separate justice system for them? Only far harsher penalties within the current one.
And yes, I consider that as bad as high treason - in fact, even worse - willfully breaking an oath given to the millions, misusing you power and effectively working against the very people you're supposed to protect and care for.
Well, it effectively is a completely different punishment system for a certain class of people, which I'm not comfortable with. Assholery like the Watergate break-in is pretty disgusting, but I think it is far from a capital crime. Treason is the act of violently opposing your government or its agents or conspiracy to do so--usually by killing its soldiers (High treason is the act of attempting to murder a reigning monarch and has no relevance to a republic, nor even England--it originally proscribed horrible, agonizing capital punishments like drawing and quartering instead of hanging or decapitation. You can't cut off someone's penis and rip out his guts while burning them in front of his face anymore). What Richard Nixon did was just a dirty trick to increase his chances of being reelected. Had Gerald Ford not pardoned him, he would've been put on trial for conspiracy, perjury, obstruction of justice, and other crimes. Instead, Gerald Ford gave him a free pass but got his due in the form of the destruction of his political career and earning the permanent scorn and disdain of his constituents, which is pretty horrible if you're a politician.

Besides, justice isn't about vengeance.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 02:19:23 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
It all seems to me like a convenient way for the US to issue a "**** you!" to Venezuela than state sponsored terrorism. But it is wrong, and I think something should be done to make sure it doesn't happen again.

And the other 637 attempts to kill Castro were what?

The US has a long history of sponsoring terrorists in Cuba. Posanda isn't the only person to have gotten away with it. Again shall I point out that that the Taliban actually did less than the US and were accused of state sponsored terrorism?
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Can you bring up a figure that demonstrates that US-sponsored assassination attempts against Castro killed more than 3,000 Cuban civilians?

Also, I think you should keep in mind the Cold War mindset most of the attempts were conducted under--the America that ****ed up the Bay of Pigs invasion was a very different America from the one that exists now, and Cuba was a pawn of a second superpower that not only wanted to turn the entire world into Soviet satellites, but had the means to inflict a nuclear holocaust on the entire planet.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline Bob-san

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I think that both Gore and Kerry would be worse as a president than Bush. We've had Bush for nearing 8 years now--we can debate all we want about his actions. We have never had Gore or Kerry in office--we can only judge them by their running platform and what the votes finally said about them. The senior Bush won about 53% of the popular vote and 79% of the electoral college. After than, in 1992, Clinton won about 43% of the popular vote (Republicans won 37% and Ross Perot won 19%) and 69% of the electoral college. Four years later he won 49% of the popular vote (republicans had 41% and Ross Perot had 8%) and 70% of the electoral college. Now, Bush had one of the closest elections in recent history. He won just under 48% of the popular vote (just over 48% for democrats, about 3% for Nader) and just over 50% of the electoral college. Close one, no? Popular vote definitely went to the Democrats, though he won the electoral college. Anyways--the decision ultimately was in the Supreme Court and Bush won by 500-some votes in a machine count. Now in 2004, he won a clear majority of both popular and electoral votes. That we can't argue over--he clearly won in 2004 and he's still president now.


Wait, wait! You you're equating the number of votes with how good a president they would be? :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
That's the most broken and insane  violation of logic I have seen in my entire life....well..almost. You get second place.
I'm equating number of votes and where (in our messed up democracy with the entire electoral college) to say the we chose the guy to be president. The case went in front of the US Supreme Court who, if I'm not mistaken, are supposed to set aside their personal feelings and decide on issues based on the letter and the intent of the law, just like every Judge out there. It's our laws and processes that got us Bush. However it went, "the people" had chose Bush. Even if it wasn't the first time, we definitely chose him the second time. If you want to dispute his election, tell your district's Congress(wo)man and Senator. After all--you had a say in their election and they're there to represent you.

Enough of this--Bush was elected twice in one form or another. You had a say in this, I didn't. The only evidence of a purchased or an attempt to purchase an election in this thread was done by Democrats. Give me a solid (as in no conspiracy theorist nutjobs) evidence that the election was purchases and I'll rethink my position. Heck--give me any non-conspiracy evidence and I'll rethink my position.
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
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or Earth ends up administered by some extraterrestrial power,

If only we can imagine. All hail King Kodos!


Quote
Enough of this--Bush was elected twice in one form or another. You had a say in this, I didn't. The only evidence of a purchased or an attempt to purchase an election in this thread was done by Democrats. Give me a solid (as in no conspiracy theorist nutjobs) evidence that the election was purchases and I'll rethink my position. Heck--give me any non-conspiracy evidence and I'll rethink my position.

This is just for 2004:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
http://freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/983
http://www.jqjacobs.net/politics/ohio.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/14/politics/main649380.shtml
http://www.votefraud.org/big_fix_2004_hopsicker.htm

And here's one about 2000 for good measure:
http://www.votefraud.org/election2000_scam.htm


I'm really shocked at how it doesn't bother you that there were such massive inconsistancies in the exit polls. Exit polling has been used for 40 years with perfect accuracy until 2000 and 2004 and is still used in many third world countries to determine if the election is rigged. If the exit polls don't line up with the results by a wide margin, as in 2000 and 2004 in florida and ohio respectively, then you know something is wrong, regardless of which party is the victim.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
If only we can imagine. All hail King Kodos President Kang!
Clearly, you voted for Kodos.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
SAVE US XENU...or something.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Can you bring up a figure that demonstrates that US-sponsored assassination attempts against Castro killed more than 3,000 Cuban civilians?

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/L3028.doc.htm

Specifically this bit.

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BRUNO RODRIGUEZ PARRILLA (Cuba) said it was impossible to eliminate terrorism if some terrorist acts were condemned while others were tolerated or justified.  In order to advance, it was necessary to address with complete honesty all the forms and manifestations of terrorism worldwide, not excluding under any circumstances the concept of State terrorism.  In the last 44 years, 691 terrorist acts had been committed against Cuba, 33 of them in the last 5 years.  As a result, 3,478 Cubans had died, and 2,099 suffered disabilities.  In Miami, safe shelter was offered to those who funded, planned and carried out terrorist acts with absolute impunity, tolerated by the United States Government. 

Giving examples of terrorist activities against his country, he said that instead of bringing to trial the eight individuals who had hijacked a Cuban plane last November, the United States had provided them with asylum.  On 7 February, despite the “orange” anti-terrorist alert in the United States, a Cuban coastguard boat with four armed men arrived and docked in Key West, without being stopped.

On 16 January, Cuba had declassified abundant files about the terrorists who freely acted in Miami.  They had been submitted to high-ranking Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) officers in Havana in 1998.   Instead of punishing the terrorists, the FBI had arrested five people who had been trying to obtain information about the terrorist groups based in Miami and those young men were condemned to unjust and long jail sentences, two of them for life.

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Also, I think you should keep in mind the Cold War mindset most of the attempts were conducted under--the America that ****ed up the Bay of Pigs invasion was a very different America from the one that exists now, and Cuba was a pawn of a second superpower that not only wanted to turn the entire world into Soviet satellites, but had the means to inflict a nuclear holocaust on the entire planet.

I'm pretty sure Osama Bin Laden could say almost the exact same thing to justify his terrorist attacks on the US.
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Quote
Enough of this--Bush was elected twice in one form or another. You had a say in this, I didn't. The only evidence of a purchased or an attempt to purchase an election in this thread was done by Democrats. Give me a solid (as in no conspiracy theorist nutjobs) evidence that the election was purchases and I'll rethink my position. Heck--give me any non-conspiracy evidence and I'll rethink my position.

This is just for 2004:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
http://freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/983
http://www.jqjacobs.net/politics/ohio.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/14/politics/main649380.shtml
http://www.votefraud.org/big_fix_2004_hopsicker.htm

And here's one about 2000 for good measure:
http://www.votefraud.org/election2000_scam.htm


I'm really shocked at how it doesn't bother you that there were such massive inconsistancies in the exit polls. Exit polling has been used for 40 years with perfect accuracy until 2000 and 2004 and is still used in many third world countries to determine if the election is rigged. If the exit polls don't line up with the results by a wide margin, as in 2000 and 2004 in florida and ohio respectively, then you know something is wrong, regardless of which party is the victim.
Let's start with the votefraud.org. I haven't seen a citation page--something that I always look for to back up their claims. To me--that's just wackos making up and spewing lies and distorted half-truths.

I'll continue this later. I have to go somewhere and I'll be back sometime later.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
Well, it effectively is a completely different punishment system for a certain class of people, which I'm not comfortable with. Assholery like the Watergate break-in is pretty disgusting, but I think it is far from a capital crime. Treason is the act of violently opposing your government or its agents or conspiracy to do so--usually by killing its soldiers (High treason is the act of attempting to murder a reigning monarch and has no relevance to a republic, nor even England--it originally proscribed horrible, agonizing capital punishments like drawing and quartering instead of hanging or decapitation. You can't cut off someone's penis and rip out his guts while burning them in front of his face anymore). What Richard Nixon did was just a dirty trick to increase his chances of being reelected. Had Gerald Ford not pardoned him, he would've been put on trial for conspiracy, perjury, obstruction of justice, and other crimes. Instead, Gerald Ford gave him a free pass but got his due in the form of the destruction of his political career and earning the permanent scorn and disdain of his constituents, which is pretty horrible if you're a politician.

Besides, justice isn't about vengeance.

You're missing the point. The one is power are missing any real deterrent to stop them from misusing their power. As long as politics enables you to get filthy rich and get away with it you'll get assholes in the office because a setup like that attracts them and they swarm like flies to a piece of crap.

People in power should be made VERY, very much responsible for everything they do with harsh reprocutions. Being in politics should be a hard, even dangerous position. The stakes should be higher.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I'm equating number of votes and where (in our messed up democracy with the entire electoral college) to say the we chose the guy to be president. The case went in front of the US Supreme Court who, if I'm not mistaken, are supposed to set aside their personal feelings and decide on issues based on the letter and the intent of the law, just like every Judge out there. It's our laws and processes that got us Bush. However it went, "the people" had chose Bush. Even if it wasn't the first time, we definitely chose him the second time. If you want to dispute his election, tell your district's Congress(wo)man and Senator. After all--you had a say in their election and they're there to represent you.

Enough of this--Bush was elected twice in one form or another. You had a say in this, I didn't. The only evidence of a purchased or an attempt to purchase an election in this thread was done by Democrats. Give me a solid (as in no conspiracy theorist nutjobs) evidence that the election was purchases and I'll rethink my position. Heck--give me any non-conspiracy evidence and I'll rethink my position.

I'm not american. I didn't vote for him.
What I'm asking is - what does it matter how many people voted for him? What relevance does it have to a persons quality as a leader? The masses can choose complete idiots - it happens quite often. The masses are...well...dumb.
So how can you state that X is a better leader than Y simply because X had more votes? :wtf:
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
I'm equating number of votes and where (in our messed up democracy with the entire electoral college) to say the we chose the guy to be president. The case went in front of the US Supreme Court who, if I'm not mistaken, are supposed to set aside their personal feelings and decide on issues based on the letter and the intent of the law, just like every Judge out there. It's our laws and processes that got us Bush. However it went, "the people" had chose Bush. Even if it wasn't the first time, we definitely chose him the second time. If you want to dispute his election, tell your district's Congress(wo)man and Senator. After all--you had a say in their election and they're there to represent you.

Enough of this--Bush was elected twice in one form or another. You had a say in this, I didn't. The only evidence of a purchased or an attempt to purchase an election in this thread was done by Democrats. Give me a solid (as in no conspiracy theorist nutjobs) evidence that the election was purchases and I'll rethink my position. Heck--give me any non-conspiracy evidence and I'll rethink my position.

I'm not american. I didn't vote for him.
What I'm asking is - what does it matter how many people voted for him? What relevance does it have to a persons quality as a leader? The masses can choose complete idiots - it happens quite often. The masses are...well...dumb.
So how can you state that X is a better leader than Y simply because X had more votes? :wtf:
I don't know if I accomplished my exact goals with the statement. What I was saying is either way we chose him. Election fraud or no, it's our system that we should influence. Yeah, the masses are a bunch of idiots voting along party lines. There's no doubt that most elections are won because a candidate is from the more popular party, not because they're a better choice.

The biggest example of the opposite of this is Obama's support base stemming from more than just Democrats--he has many anti-Clinton supporters from both Democratic and Republican parties. Many Republics will rally their support just to keep Clinton from an arguably third term in office. Back in the late 1700s, the founding fathers never thought of a man running for president and then his wife running for president--effectively doubling their power over the country and becoming a sort of monarchy.

Regardless of the post-WWII limit of 2 terms for a president, Washington himself started the sort of 2-term limit tradition for whatever reasons he did (old age, fear of a monarchy, &c). It was followed by most presidents prior to WWII, and Roosevelt only stayed in office to support the British and see WWII through. Wartime presidents get elected because a switch in power usually disrupts the war effort. We helped thousands more people in Iraq and Afghanistan than the liberal media will tell us about on a daily basis. They've basically made us forget about the war.

As Iraq and Afghanistan stabilize, we hear less and less about it. No doubt the media chooses what to show and what not to show--they try to direct our attention towards one issue or another. As long as they make advertising revenue and keep a high number of viewers, they'll continue with that. I think one reason we hear less about the war is people started tuning out of it--the war basically marked the true end of my childhood. At 10 years old, I started seeing and hearing and being exposed to the outside world's problems as well as the end of an even worse experience--visitation.

Anyways--the masses are dumb. They're a flock of sheep being led to a slaughterhouse by both the Democratic and the Republican parties. On a whole, we gave up our voices to those ambitious enough to take them from us--our own local politicians. We are so blind of the abuses the government, again Democratic or Republican, on us that we willingly accept them. One thing that immediately comes to mind is state-run burglary--or the lottery. In my state of New York at least, the lottery is meant to help pay for the education system. However, most of the profits are being used anywhere BUT the education system. The only money that really goes from the lottery to education is all for publicity and a burst of new stuff--computers, projectors, calculators, and text books. Stuff that'll almost always be broken or outdated within 3-5 years. The lottery rarely seems to give a handout, and when they do they make sure every local TV station hears about it and makes a story about it.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Fidel Castro steps down as president of Cubq
You still haven't answered the question of how does that make Gore or Kerry worse than Bush....
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