Author Topic: Capital Punishment  (Read 30012 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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What did I say that's NOT Vaticans position? I never claimed otherwise.
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Offline karajorma

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:rolleyes:

Evidently I do have to put it more simply.

The Vatican says Catholics shouldn't support the death penalty. You support the death penalty. Therefore you claim you are right and the Vatican is wrong.

And if you go into some nonsense about not supporting the death penalty I'm have to insist you set in stone your position on the death penalty before continuing this charade any longer.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 01:12:38 pm by karajorma »
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Offline TrashMan

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I'm not claiming I am right.

All I'm claiming that I am undecided in regards to death penalty itself. I'm "on the fence "so to say.
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Offline karajorma

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Well at least we've made some progress if you're on the fence now considering that your original position was pro-death penalty.

I'd reserved it for only the biggest offenders in cases with overwhleming evidence.

However getting us back to the point I was making earlier you invalidate your claim that priests are better suited to interpret the bible if you ignore the accepted priestly wisdom of the Vatican and decide to interpret it yourself. Your very action of being on the fence says "I'm going to interpret the bible how I see fit not some guy in a funny hat in the Vatican"

In other words despite your protests to the contrary you're doing pretty much what GOatmaster said you should.
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Definition of the Trinity - God is three separate and co-equal beings. (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate and co-equal beings)

God is not three but God is one - not a compound unity but a absolute unity (always has been).

Interesting.  Your definition of not-Trinity is more or less how I've always understood the Trinity.  Your definition of the Trinity sounds a lot like what I understand the Mormons to believe. 

Now Trashman, here's a lesson to you.  This guy delved into Scripture for his understanding of Biblical things, and stating his argument for the ideas born out of that understanding.  I would advise you to do the same.  All you've done so far is tell me what you speculate, what your opinions, thoughts and ideas are, and what the priests have told you.  You haven't used a shred of Biblical evidence to support your arguments, and that more than anything shows me you've allowed yourself to be misled by not reading and knowing the Word of God.


Trashman.  That is a verse from the Bible.  It is also an absolute statement.  You cannot NOT agree with it. You cannot interpret it differently.

Well, obviously I can. If it was not possible, I couldn't have done it. Now please drop it. You're coming off as strong as the worst Jehovas Witnesses.

Well I darn well better.  Self-proclaimed Atheists, agnostics, Muslims, etc. are one thing.  But you sir, you claim to be a Christian.  And you are going around talking to people as if you had the slightest idea what that means when you don't, and your words betray that you don't.  Do you have any idea the kind of image you are giving Christ with the way you talk, the way you act?

You say there are very few people you are comfortable sharing your religion with.  Well, hear this right here and right now:  Everyone on this message board that knows of you as a Christian is looking to you for a definition of what that means, and my how you've led them astray.  Whether or not by choice, you sir are a False Teacher.  As a Christian, in the name of all that is good, I demand you to correct that.

That last verse I posted, Romans 10:9-10, is a VERY key and central piece of following Christ's teachings.  To say you don't believe it is to say you don't believe Christ's sacrifice was sufficient.  This is something you need to correct, or at the very least, stop telling people you believe.

Call yourself what you will, but if you don't believe in Christ's sacrifice, you are not a Christian, and to say that you are is to mislead others.

Quote
So are pastors.  And how many extra books has the Catholic Church claimed to be Inspired works that in reality contradict the Bible?  Many.  How often does the Catechism contradict the Bible?  Quite often.  By that alone your point is shattered. 

Eh? :wtf:
Well, if you're free to interpret the Bible as you wish, how can you then attack me for interpreting it differently? :wtf:

Where in that did I say you're free to interpret the Bible as you wish?  There are parts that are somewhat up for debate as to their meaning, but there are parts that simply cannot be stated more simply, which are the very parts you have time and again attempted to reinvent and reimagine in a way to suit your own opinions.


Sorry to take this so off-topic, guys, and i would have much rather talked to Trashman about all the parts of these posts not related to the Death Penalty, but I simply couldn't let such a public misrepresentation stand without publicly denouncing it.

I hope this nonsense is finished, one way or another.  Trashman, respond in private please.

And for the record, it's not that you don't agree with me.  It's that you don't agree with the Bible.  And not just my "interpretation," but key parts that are plainly and simply stated and are not open to interpretation at all.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 08:32:40 pm by G0atmaster »
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Offline jdjtcagle

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Quote
Interesting.  Your definition of not-Trinity is more or less how I've always understood the Trinity.  Your definition of the Trinity sounds a lot like what I understand the Mormons to believe.

I am Oneness Pentecostal :)

My definition of the Trinity goes back into the "catholic" church history - not Mormon
Hermeneutics and Christology is vital to the understanding of who God is and what His sacrifice means to us.

I study them ALOT - even listen to debates in my spare time PM me if you want a link

I've witnessed to many people in my walk with God and they give me the same answer as you have... They don't believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different persons in a so called Godhead (state of being deity) - But rather God was manifested in the flesh, to humbled himself as a human and give himself for our sins and ALL of the Godhead is in him as I believe... but insist on calling it "the Trinity" for tradition sake.

"For in him (JESUS) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead (STATE OF BEING GOD) bodily (MAN)" (Colossians 2:9)

That's why when I want to talk to the Father I need to look no farther than that of Jesus :)

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Offline karajorma

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@jdjtcagle - So you're basically saying that Jesus was God's avatar rather than a separate being?
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Offline captain-custard

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if jesus was gods avatar and was born today he would be in Guantanamo awaiting the death penalty
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Offline TrashMan

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However getting us back to the point I was making earlier you invalidate your claim that priests are better suited to interpret the bible if you ignore the accepted priestly wisdom of the Vatican and decide to interpret it yourself. Your very action of being on the fence says "I'm going to interpret the bible how I see fit not some guy in a funny hat in the Vatican"

In other words despite your protests to the contrary you're doing pretty much what GOatmaster said you should.

Yes, priests ARE better suited to interpret the Bible. Not to say that ordinary folk can't do that to - most of the stuff in the Bible is pretty clear anyway. If I want to interpret a huge scientific formula I'd go to a physicist. If I want to interpret a C++ code I see a programmer. I CAN do those thing myself and get then done accurately, and the programmer of physicist can very well make a mistake, but that doesn't happen very often.

However, you should have noted that I never claimed my interpretation is more correct than that of G0aty here or the church. My whole point was to prove that different interpretations CAN be made.

Speaking of which, after talking to the priest today he did confirm two things:
- all sins are NOT equal, alltough no sin is insignificant. As he put it "The small sin is nothing more or less than the greatest sin after the big sins."
- Churches stance is that catholics shouldn't (not mustn't) support death penalty. Being for death penalty doesn't make you a non catholic.




@ G0aty

Quote
Well I darn well better.  Self-proclaimed Atheists, agnostics, Muslims, etc. are one thing.  But you sir, you claim to be a Christian.  And you are going around talking to people as if you had the slightest idea what that means when you don't, and your words betray that you don't.  Do you have any idea the kind of image you are giving Christ with the way you talk, the way you act?

You say there are very few people you are comfortable sharing your religion with.  Well, hear this right here and right now:  Everyone on this message board that knows of you as a Christian is looking to you for a definition of what that means, and my how you've led them astray.  Whether or not by choice, you sir are a False Teacher.  As a Christian, in the name of all that is good, I demand you to correct that.

You can take your self-righteous air of superiority and shove it where the Sun doesn't shine.

You presume I don't know the word of God and my religion and at the same time you yourself are an infallible  instrument of God. Now, I'm just as secure in myself and my beliefs as you are in yours, if not more. Yet I don't go attacking you, claiming you to be non-christian, a deceiver or whatnot and demanding apologies or conversion.
You know why? Because it's not nice. It's not my place to do so. Because I don't consider myself infalilble. And because I'm don't have the habit of trying to force myself on other people.

So why don't YOU stop telling other people what to believe, eh?


Quote
Where in that did I say you're free to interpret the Bible as you wish?  There are parts that are somewhat up for debate as to their meaning, but there are parts that simply cannot be stated more simply, which are the very parts you have time and again attempted to reinvent and reimagine in a way to suit your own opinions.

And I disagree again. How hard it is to understand that simply because YOU can't fathom a different interpretation it therefore cannot exist. and gee golly, what do you know, MY interpretations happens to be exactly the same as the official one of the church. I may be wrong in many thing, but in this? Highly unlikely.
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Offline karajorma

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Yes, priests ARE better suited to interpret the Bible. Not to say that ordinary folk can't do that to - most of the stuff in the Bible is pretty clear anyway. If I want to interpret a huge scientific formula I'd go to a physicist. If I want to interpret a C++ code I see a programmer. I CAN do those thing myself and get then done accurately, and the programmer of physicist can very well make a mistake, but that doesn't happen very often.

However, you should have noted that I never claimed my interpretation is more correct than that of G0aty here or the church. My whole point was to prove that different interpretations CAN be made.


Quote
Churches stance is that catholics shouldn't (not mustn't) support death penalty. Being for death penalty doesn't make you a non catholic.

So you're saying you think your interpretation is more likely to be wrong than that of the Vatican or the priest you spoke to but you're going to remain on the fence anyway? 

Why would anyone willingly hold onto an opinion that they believed was more likely to be wrong?
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Human nature. We all do or have done it at one point i'd wager. I know i have well against my better judgement. :)
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Offline karajorma

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Yeah but did you spend 10 pages of an internet discussion then trying to prove that you were correct to hold that view?
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Offline jdjtcagle

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@jdjtcagle - So you're basically saying that Jesus was God's avatar rather than a separate being?

That's a good question - No Jesus is not God's avatar because that would abolish the need for a separation of the Father and Son that is clearly in the bible.  Trinitarians maintained that Father, Son, and Spirit are three eternally distinct persons within the one essence of God. They maintained the two truths that God is one and that Jesus is God, but did so at the expense of redefining "one" to mean a "unity" of three persons within the one essence of God. Such a redefining of monotheism brought the church to the borders of Tritheism. While it retained its belief in monotheism on a semantic level, it abandoned monotheism on the conceptual level. This interpretation of the bible tries to explain separation taught within the bible without upholding biblical Monotheism. 

So how do you reconcile the passages where Christ speaks (separately from the Father) and the passages where Christ is explained (to be God)?

It's because of His humanity. Let me attempt to show you what the scripture says. (there is ALOT)

Now I will readily admit that on the surface Jesus does seem to speak of himself and the Father as if they were two persons. In fact, I would say that the first indication of Trinitarian thought began with Philip in John 14 when he asked Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father" (v. 8). Jesus had been speaking of God in a distanced way all this time, and poor Philip thought that he was speaking of another person. But, notice Jesus' response. He almost sounded as if he were puzzled when he said, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?" (v. 9). Jesus was saying that he himself was the one that Philip was asking for.

One reason that Jesus so often spoke of God in the third person is that he did not want to appear unto men as God, but he wanted to appear as a man just like one of us, as we read in Philippians 2:5-8 -
Quote
Philippians 2:5-8, NIV:

    5. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

    6. Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    7. but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

    8. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

But that still leaves the question: Why does the New Testament make a distinction at times? The answer to this goes back to the dual nature of Jesus. In the capacity of being fully man, He was distinct from God. Not just distinct from the Father but from being God at all. This is why we can see references to the God of Jesus Christ (Matt. 27:46; John 20:17; Eph. 1:17). This is obviously not the God of God. It is the God of a man. Jesus is called a man over and over (Acts 2:22; 13:38; I Tim 2:5). As a man, there were things He did not know (Mark 13:32), there were things He could not do (Mark 6:5), He could only be in one place at one time (John 16:7), He could be tempted (Heb 4:15), He could thirst (John 19:28), and He could die (John 19:33). So from this point of view He was distinct from God, and could be spoken of that way. But from another point of view He was fully God and could be called such (John 20:28; I Tim 3:16; I John 5:20). When we see a separate reference it is always something like: "God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ." What you never see is: "God the Father and God the Son." It is always God and man, Spirit and flesh, God the Father and the Son of God. As I Timothy 2:5 puts it, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Don't let duel nature confuse you... you can't split Jesus down the middle and see to natures. Oneness theology does not see the Father-Son distinction as a distinction between Christ's two natures does not mean that it precludes us from seeing the Father-Son distinction as a result of God's acquisition of a human nature. It goes without saying that the acquisition of genuine human nature affected God's manner of existence. What made the one uni-personal God the "Son" in Oneness theology is the fact that He united human nature to His divine person, personally existing as man. What we distinguish, then, is not Christ's divine nature from His human nature, but rather God's normal manner of existence as God from His human manner of existence as man (made possible only because of the acquisition of the human nature in the incarnation). The distinction is not one of natures, but rather personal manner of existence--and that manner of existence is only different because of the acquisition of the human nature. What we are pointing out, then, is the cause of the distinction, not the location of the distinction.
Quote
Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
      Unto us a Son is given;
      And the government will be upon His shoulder.
      And His name will be called
      Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
      Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Please ask any question and I would love to help you understand "Oneness Theology", such a broad topic allows questions for more scriptural clarity. :)

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Offline karajorma

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Actually it's probably easier to grasp if you stay away from the scriptural back up for what you're saying and simply give me the interpretation. I'm perfectly willing to assume you can back it up but it gets in the way and makes it harder to understand when you try to.

To summarise, Jesus has no independent spirit/soul/whatever (Unlike say Gabriel or any other angel.) He has no separate existence in heaven but on Earth he has to take on characteristics of the human body he is using and thus is separate from God in a way he wouldn't be in heaven.

Right?
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Offline TrashMan

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Yeah but did you spend 10 pages of an internet discussion then trying to prove that you were correct to hold that view?

If that's what you think I was doing, you need glasses...desperately.
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Offline jdjtcagle

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Sorry, but I can never give the simple answer... :P


Alright, the testimony of Scripture is that Jesus had a humans spirit. On the cross Jesus said, "Father, into your hand I commit my spirit" (Luke 23:46). Was Jesus giving the Father back His Holy Spirit? How could Jesus' divine Spirit separate from Him? Death occurs when the spirit separates from body (James 2:26), but if the Divine Spirit separated from Jesus He would cease to exist. If God did not actually become a man, with all that that entails, we end up with a picture of Jesus’ humanity being nothing more than that of a suit that God put on.  So yes, He had two spirits (one Divine and one human) and He did exist in heaven as God, but took on a separate consciousness with an independent human spirit in the incarnation as man which is a mystery to understand of itself...

Quote
1 Timothy 3:16

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

      God was manifested in the flesh,
      Justified in the Spirit,
      Seen by angels,
      Preached among the Gentiles,
      Believed on in the world,
      Received up in glory.

Still God, but existed as a man - rather than God in a man suit.

Did I do it this time? :-P

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Offline karajorma

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Yeah, think I've got it this time. :)

If that's what you think I was doing, you need glasses...desperately.

So what were you doing? Rather than name calling how about you clearly explain what you have been up to. Seems to me you've spent 10 pages trying to claim you are justified to be on the fence.
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Offline TrashMan

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I wasn't trying to justifying anything. I was merely discussing the pros and cons of a subject from different viewpoints. A person is prefectly capable of talking on a forum without trying to shove his view on things into everything.


Speaking of which, I don't feel the need to justify my views to anyone, let alone on a forum.

Now, if you were my friend and we taking a long walk so we have a few hours to kill then then would be something.

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Offline karajorma

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Actually after your first post you do have to justify your views. You get one post to state what your views are. After that if you're continuing the debate you're just spamming unless you justify your argument. I've explained exactly why before but if you aren't prepared to justify your views the debate goes like this.

Person 1 : My view
Person 2: My view
Person 1: You're wrong but I'm not justifying my view
Person 3: My view
Person 1: You're wrong but I'm not justifying my view
Person 4: No person 1, you're wrong. Here's a long list of why you're wrong.
Person 1: You're wrong but I'm not justifying my view
Admin : Person 1 you're trolling and/or spamming. Welcome to Banination, population : You
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