Author Topic: Capital Punishment  (Read 30004 times)

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Offline Ghostavo

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Offline BloodEagle

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Wow, this topic is getting hazy.

Get this - the scripture sez do not kill. Ever. Under no circumstances. Jesus didn't strike against those who killed and tortured him. Therefore, to follow the scripture to the letter, you shouldn't defend yourself when someone tries to kill you. Because even killing in self-defense is still killing.

I'm pretty sure the original text (unbastardized) states something along the lines of 'thou shalt not murder'. I could be wrong about that, however.

Regardless, if the original texts weren't bastardized in this regard, Jesus said to turn the other cheek. In other words, he negates earlier records of what Moses declared to be one of God's laws.

That's the biggest problem, we have no real way of knowing how much (if any) of the Bible is incorrect. I suppose the best solution would be to read the original texts, but that would require learning another language. And even then, the people who wrote it in the first place could have stretched the truth or forgotton to include important details, and that's not even going into how the current Holy Bible was put together. :ick:

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Would you dare say you're a better Christian than Paul, or a more righteous man than David?

Maybe.. I'm not keeping score, alltough I haven't killed or endulged in adultery. That's got to count for something.

While (as I have pointed out) the original texts may state something different (although I doubt it in this case), current scripture states that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord.

---------------

Well, this thread probably needs to be split in twain, now.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Regardless, if the original texts weren't bastardized in this regard, Jesus said to turn the other cheek. In other words, he negates earlier records of what Moses declared to be one of God's laws.

That's the biggest problem, we have no real way of knowing how much (if any) of the Bible is incorrect. I suppose the best solution would be to read the original texts, but that would require learning another language. And even then, the people who wrote it in the first place could have stretched the truth or forgotton to include important details, and that's not even going into how the current Holy Bible was put together.

Reason why I'm pretty much ignoring the Old Testament (being old and filled with everything). Christianity is based on the New Testament anyway.

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While (as I have pointed out) the original texts may state something different (although I doubt it in this case), current scripture states that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord.

Petty theft = murder/rape?
You got to be kidding me! I recall no such thing. Heck I wouldn't be a christian if that were true.
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Offline Clawandfang

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...current scripture states that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord.
Really? So if I believed in Christianity, then I should find the idea of theft just as abhorrent as serial rape and/or murder?
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Offline BloodEagle

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Quote
While (as I have pointed out) the original texts may state something different (although I doubt it in this case), current scripture states that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord.

Petty theft = murder/rape?
You got to be kidding me! I recall no such thing. Heck I wouldn't be a christian if that were true.

...current scripture states that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord.
Really? So if I believed in Christianity, then I should find the idea of theft just as abhorrent as serial rape and/or murder?

Quote from: James 2:10 (NIV)
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

The very nature of a sin is that it is an affront to God. The only difference between sins is how humans treat them. That's why there are Seven Deadly Sins, it's because they lead there, not because they're worse.

In other words, treating sins as different is a double-standard. Is killing a child worse than killing an adult? Double-standard. Is committing adultery worse than stealing a candy bar from a supermarket? Double-standard.

 

Offline TrashMan

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RUBBISH.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

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Offline BloodEagle

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Offline redsniper

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Perhaps in the eyes of men crimes seem different. I can't exactly disagree with murder being worse than petty theft. I think the whole "all sins equal in the eyes of God" thing is meaning that no matter how grievous or trivial your sins, they're still sins and need to be forgiven.
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Offline Clawandfang

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The very nature of a sin is that it is an affront to God.
I consider a sin to be something which causes unnecessary damage to someone, physcological or physical or whatever. I care about things depending on how they effect my own kind and other living things, not whether it pleases God (probably, I'll admit, because I don't believe in him/her).
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Offline Polpolion

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So from what I understand of original sin and the things stated in this thread, being born a human is as bad as ruthlessly torturing a nun. :p

Either the religions wrote something down wrong in the bible, or God isn't that special.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Or you're not understanding it right..option no.3 that most people ignore.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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On a serious note, i'm all athiest but i could convert to Autobotism, worship at the temple of matrix, see Optimus for confession etc. And Yay he did die for our safety only to rise again in lesser episodes after the movie. Religion has had thousands of years to imbue itself into society, i would've thought that the 2nd coming would've 'come' by now.
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Offline TrashMan

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What does that have to do with capital punishment? :wtf:
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Oops. Ignore / Delete post pls. Wrong forum. Lol
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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I have half a mind to ditch class to post here, there's so much wrong with what I'm reading since I last posted...

But I can't.  Have mercy and try not to add another 3 pages before 10:30 PST when I get out of class...
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Offline jdjtcagle

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Alright, not talking much on the nature of sin itself but rather on capital punishment.  Christians should know where they stand on this issue, because the bible is clear that God is for capital punishment, ironically most "Christians" are just as confused as everyone else.

Let me show you guys biblical teaching on capital punishment. 
I've had plenty of time to find my scriptures and will have at it... Please, I'm not trying to start a huge debate but I really want to defend this position.  I've spent ALOT of time on this so please forgive me on the length.


First - Old Testament

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Genesis 9:5-6

5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood,
     By man his blood shall be shed;
     For in the image of God
     He made man.

God spoke these words to Noah after the flood in context of the covenant He made with mankind to never again destroy mankind by flood. (Note: This command preceded the Mosaic Law which by nature was temporal until fulfilled by Christ in the New Covenant )  This covenant was not temporal, but eternal in nature... thus exist in the New Covenant

Man is made in the image of God; therefore, a fatal attack against God's image-bearers is an attack against God Himself. This is the reason God commanded that the individual who sheds another man's blood shall have his own blood shed as well.

When we come to the Mosaic Covenant we find an many crimes for which capital punishment was applicable. The Law of Moses instructed the penalty of death for many offenses, most of which were moral and religious in nature. While human government is no longer responsible for dealing out capital punishment for most moral and religious offences (as they were under Mosaic Law), they are still responsible for administering capital punishment in the case of the intentional murder of an innocent human being (Noahic Covenant).

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You shall not kill. (Exodus 20:13; see also Deuteronomy 5:17)

The hebrew word for kill is ratsach which always refers to the murder of another human being (whether it be intentional or accidental).  Although there are more words for kill that refer to the taking of life a accurate word for ratsach is "murder".  Muwth is another word means to kill, often prematurely; i.e. execution. This is the power God has over His creation (Deuteronomy 32:39), what God intended to do to Moses for not circumcising his son, what God commanded Israel to do to those who sacrifice their children to Molech, and what David consented to be done to him had he been guilty of any wrongdoing against Saul (II Samuel 14:32). The prohibition in the Ten Commandment then, is against murder, not killing. It is a prohibition against the unjust taking of innocent human life, not the taking of any life whatsoever.

It's wise for use to to make a clear distinction between killing and murder as well. Killing can be just, but murder is always unjust. That's why it is factually incorrect to say capital punishment is the killing of those who kill others. Capital punishment is the killing of those who murder others. It would be equally wrong to say capital punishment is the murdering of those who murder others. Taking the life of an individual who unjustly took the life of another human being is not murder, but killing. To use "killing" or "murder" of both parties interchangeably is to confuse the just taking of life with the unjust.

New Testament

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Pilate therefore said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin." (John 19:10-11, NAS)

Alright, what is important to note about this passage is that Jesus did not challenge Pilate's governal right to sentence Him to death. He implicitly affirmed Pilate's right to administer capital punishment, and that the right came from God. He did not say, "You have no authority to do this," but rather - "You only have this authority because it is given to you by God." Pilate thought he held the power of Jesus' life in his own hand, but Jesus countered that Pilate would not be able to crucify Him unless God allowed him to do so.... Jesus challenged the source of Pilate's right, not the right itself.

There is no question that the state's execution of Jesus was unjust (because Jesus was innocent, and capital punishment is for the guilty), but that is no reflection on the just nature of capital punishment itself. While there may be unjust applications of a state's right to execute certain criminals for purposes of justice, it does not taint the just nature of capital punishment itself.

Now turn your attention to Paul -
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Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 13:2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment 13:3 (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation, 13:4 for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be in fear, for it does not bear the sword in vain. It is God's servant to administer retribution on the wrongdoer. (Romans 13:1-4)

According to Paul the purpose of human government is to reward good and punish evil...

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Festus, wanting to do the Jews a favor, asked Paul, "Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and be tried before me there on these charges?" 25:10 Paul replied, "I am standing before Caesar's judgment seat, where I should be tried. I have done nothing wrong to the Jews, as you also know very well. 25:11 If then I am in the wrong and have done anything that deserves death, I am not trying to escape dying, but if not one of their charges against me is true, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!" 25:12 Then, after conferring with his council, Festus replied, "You have appealed to Caesar; to Caesar you will go!" (Acts 25:9-11)

Paul had been imprisoned for approximately two years when he stood trial before Festus. The Jews in attendance brought many accusations against him. Paul maintained his innocence from those charges, but did not object to being put to death if he had done anything that was deserving of death.  Paul did not object to the possibility of capital punishment by arguing that it was unjust punishment... or in contradiction to God's design. To the contrary, he acknowledged there were crimes deserving of death, and was willing to submit to that penalty had he actually committed those crimes.

I believe this to be on topic and not directly dealing with the nature of sin but the justification of capital punishment from a "Christian" point of view.

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Offline Polpolion

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Contradicting passages, FTW!

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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It appears as if Jesus only died for the sins of mankind that Trashman wanted him to die for. He should be able to pick and choose which sins people can live long enough to possibly repent for.

It's not quite mad. Recall that some sins are basically unforgiveable. Murder, for example, is a bit tough to forgive, because the person who could do it with any real meaning is kinda dead.
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Offline jdjtcagle

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No sin is unforgivable - the only sin where a person cannot receive pardon is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...  In-short - the context of that passage is seeing a miracle and calling it of the devil... Since we rely on God to even search for His existence (because according to Romans "No man seeks God" unless God draws him)

It's not that God will not forgive them, it's they are not moved by the Holy Ghost to repent... anyway that's off-topic
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Offline BloodEagle

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No sin is unforgivable - the only sin where a person cannot receive pardon is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...

By technicality, suicide (if it's done correctly) is an unforgivable sin.