[Shade]

We need to get worst of the bugs and balance problems in the validated missions fixed. To do that, we need to know which missions need fixing. So, to that end, if you know of a bug/balance problem in a mission, post it here, so we can get an idea of what needs to be done - It doesn't matter if you know what causes it or simply don't feel like opening up FRED, if you don't then just post what's wrong and I'll try to find the actual cause. I'll get the ball rolling:

Odd_M02.fs2 - Codename Robin Hood FIXED
Problems: The freighters that are targeted for capture are often killed by the friendly AI; The GTSC Juneau's escape pods sometimes don't appear.
Causes: The freighters are not protected; The escape pods arrive from the Juneau's hangar once it drops below 85% and thus can't arrive if the ship is insta-killed by heavy weapons or debris.
Possible fixes: Protect the freighters (and remove protection once they are captured); Use ship-guardian to keep the Juneau alive until the pods launch.

cet_m08.fs2 - Flight of Icarus FIXED
Problem: The Kithaeron will fire its side beams through its own hull to destroy the Icarus even if you've disarmed its forward beam cannons.
Cause: Haven't the faintest idea. Model or code bug, presumably.
Possible fix: Lock the offending beam turrets, they can never legitimately fire at anything anyway.

cet_m01.fs2 - Touch of Fate FIXED
Problem: It is impossible to defend the Shai with more than 4 players in the game.
Cause: A new squadron of helios-carrying bombers appear with higher player numbers. They jump in so close to the Shai that there is no chance to intercept the bombs even with the full 8 players all on station around the ship.
Possible fix: Make the bombers jump in at a greater distance from the Shai.

cet_m06.fs2 - The Die is Cast FIXED
Problem: Pods from the Sanjuro sometimes don't appear
Cause: Same as in Odd_M02.fs2
Possible fix: Same as in Odd_M02.fs2

TS-Bandit_M01.fs2 - Knife Fight FIXED
Problem: Debris from the Azaneal sometimes kills the Aquitaine despite the mission effectively being won.
Cause: Fast moving debris will kill anything, and on rare occasions it will head in the Aquitaine's direction.
Possible fix: Make Aquitaine invulnerable for the few seconds following the death of the Azaneal.

As problems are posted I'll try to fix the issues, and once the worst offenders are taken care of we can release a new mission pack that will hopefully be without mission bugs that make you want to pull your hair out. I already have fixed versions of the 3 missions above.

List of missions that are deemed unsalvageble:
Black Omega
Squadwar Simulation
Infinite Pereal
Long Road

[CP5670]

Good idea. There are also a few unfinished or otherwise crap missions that should be removed from the list, as they seem to have gotten validated by accident more than anything else and certainly weren't on PXO. Black Omega, Squadwar Simulation and "Infinite Pereal" are obvious ones, and Long Road (the one with the Colossus and huge flying distances) is probably another candidate.

The escape pod issue from odd_m02 (RH) occurs in one or two other missions as well. I remember that we ran into it once in cet_m06 (The Die is Cast), although it didn't matter since we never came close to winning that time.

One other thing I can think of is to reduce the long periods of inaction in some missions, like waiting for the transports to leave in odd_m02 or cet_m06. The delays don't seem to have been intentional and there is no good reason for them. In cet_m06, the transports should depart quickly only if everything else is dead first.

About the bug in cet_m08, I took a quick look at the retail Hecate model and the FOV angles for those turrets are 180, which means they can fire at angles directly perpendicular to their orientation. I think it can still be classed as an unintentional bug in that mission though, considering how hard it is to hit just the front beams.

It might also be worth fixing some blatant misspellings especially on ship names, like "Indeavor" and "Ravenger" in odd_m03.

[Shade]

Yeah, might as well get a list going of the missions that are unsalvageble too, good idea. I'll edit that in so we can keep a tally.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

The periods of inactivity in Cet's missions are there for a reason.  We're Drunks we like to drink during missions.   I believe Odd had the same point of view.

Pods not all launching is the players fault.  It's part of the difficulty of the missions.

Every one of Cet's missions is beatable.  If you aren't winning you aren't doing something right. 

Protecting the ships in Robin Hood is bordering on cheating.  Someone needs to keep an eye on the ai and order them to ignore or send the ai home.  Its like saying that disabling the ships too fast is a bug because they are too close to the spawn points. 

All of those things I just mentioned were meant to make the missions harder for expert players.  It was also meant to make getting the medals take more then one try and for people playing the missions for the first time to have to figure it out not just do this and you get a medal.

[CP5670]

The periods of inactivity in Cet's missions are there for a reason.  We're Drunks we like to drink during missions.   I believe Odd had the same point of view.

In cet_m06, the inactivity period we're talking about is at the very end of the mission. Might as well jump out and drink in the menus instead.

Pods not all launching is the players fault.  It's part of the difficulty of the missions.

A high difficulty is only good when it's there for sensible reasons. If the pods don't launch under such circumstances, they should be counted as destroyed as they would die with the ship in that situation.

Every one of Cet's missions is beatable.  If you aren't winning you aren't doing something right. 

We have actually beaten all but one or two of his missions, and the bugs are in many cases not that hard to work around. That certainly doesn't justify having them there.

Although to be fair, Cetanu's missions are relatively free of problems. It's some of the others that are especially bad.

Protecting the ships in Robin Hood is bordering on cheating.  Someone needs to keep an eye on the ai and order them to ignore or send the ai home.  Its like saying that disabling the ships too fast is a bug because they are too close to the spawn points.

The ships are supposed to be captured, and it's not a bonus objective or something, but your main goal. Not having them protected under such circumstances is simply bad mission design, and is one of several instances of it in that mission. It has nothing to do with difficulty. It's easy to send the AIs home and complete the mission without them, but a properly designed mission should not require that.

[Shade]

The periods of inactivity in Cet's missions are there for a reason.  We're Drunks we like to drink during missions.   I believe Odd had the same point of view.

That's what the respawn screen is for. Take a death, take a swig Actually that sounds like a good drinking game...

Pods not all launching is the players fault.  It's part of the difficulty of the missions.

No, it isn't. It doesn't make the missions one tiny bit harder to play (what's the difficulty in killing a ship slower? It's killing them fast that's hard), it just makes them far more annoying as you can do everything right, fly flawlessly and follow the objectives to the letter, yet still lose.

Every one of Cet's missions is beatable.  If you aren't winning you aren't doing something right.

We are winning. Both of us have a full medal case won from unmodified missions. But we also recognize that *some* of the things that gave us problems aren't intended. One should not be punished for flying well, for being efficient, for completing objectives.

Protecting the ships in Robin Hood is bordering on cheating.  Someone needs to keep an eye on the ai and order them to ignore or send the ai home.  Its like saying that disabling the ships too fast is a bug because they are too close to the spawn points.

Huh? The mission is neither harder nor easier for protecting them, except if you try it with such a low number of players that you'd have to rely on the AI to do much of the work. It's just less annoying, less prone to losing for no reason at all despite doing everything right.

All of those things I just mentioned were meant to make the missions harder for expert players.  It was also meant to make getting the medals take more then one try and for people playing the missions for the first time to have to figure it out not just do this and you get a medal.

But they don't make the missions any harder for expert players. Not one bit. And people who are trying to get the medals will still need several tries to do so if they're not helped out by someone who knows exactly what needs to be done. They just won't lose the medal the time they finally get everything right because of some stupid, silly thing that really should have been fixed before the mission was ever validated.

[haloboy100]

Should this be stickied?

[Shade]

Dunno. I wouldn't bother any mods about it though - Given the frequency of new topics so far in this forum, it will take 4 months for it to get bumped off the front page if everyone stopped posting to this thread right now.

[haloboy100]

lol, yeah

[Shade]

Everything posted so far has been fixed now. So get to work and find more bugs for me to fix I do need to know which exact missions have a problem by the way, so include either the title or filename of the offender. I haven't touched spelling mistakes in names though, mainly because there aren't really any rules for the spelling of names. Who says you can't name a ship Indeavour if you really want to?