[BloodEagle]

So you['][r][e] saying [that] it's impossible to have 0 apples in a basket?

Yes. Because having zero of something is the equivilant of having nothing. Having no apples in a basket makes the basket, and the air inside of it, the only things there.

[Retsof]

But in this case all you care about is the apples.  You're not going to eat a basket of air. 
ZERO AND NOTHING ARE THE SAME THING!  If you have no apples, you have zero apples.

[Polpolion]

So you['][r][e] saying [that] it's impossible to have 0 apples in a basket?

Yes. Because having zero of something is the equiv[a]lant of having nothing. Having no apples in a basket makes the basket, and the air inside of it, the only things there.

Not quite. You can have no apples in a basket, but it would still be a bit more correct to say that you "don't have any apples in the basket".

[BloodEagle]

You're not going to eat a basket of air.

Who said anything about eating apples? 

ZERO AND NOTHING ARE THE SAME THING!

Zero means nothing, they are not the same thing, because they are nothing. Nothing has no attributes, and therefore cannot exist. As nothing does not exist, there can be no two nothings. Ergo, zero and nothing are not the same thing. 

----

Now I'm off to do important things, so I won't be able to respond for a short while. There's food in the fridge if you get hungry. Try not to make a mess while I'm gone.

[haloboy100]

So i guess to him space can't be a vacuum then.

[Polpolion]

ZERO AND NOTHING ARE THE SAME THING!

Zero means nothing, they are not the same thing, because they are nothing. Nothing has no attributes, and therefore cannot exist. As nothing does not exist, there can be no two nothings. Ergo, zero and nothing are not the same thing. 

I pose this question to you: You see a pamphlet offering courses in Math, Science, Language, and Music. You can take no classes, or you can take 1, or 2, or 3, or all four classes. What is the difference between taking zero classes and no classes? Nothing does have an attribute: 0. Nothing does exist, because if it didn't then there would be absolutly no way for anyone to possibly conceive it. But here we are arguing about nothing (heh), which must logically mean we are arguing about something, as a subject in the very least.

You can talk about "nothing" in numerous ways, and you, BloodEagle seem to be focusing on the connotative definition. You can think of it as "the lack of anything", "zero". You personally seem to be viewing it as "no_thing", and while it may not be tangible, you can think about it and therefore it exists. "nothing" as a word isn't actually anything; it simply represents the lack of something, much as 0 represents the lack of anything.

If nothing truly didn't exist (as you say), then what the **** are we talking about? The simple fact that this debate is taking place proves the existence of "nothing" as a subject.


EDIT: "Nothing" is like a declared variable that hasn't been assigned a value.

[Flipside]

Zero is a determinable value, the sum total of gold bars in my bedroom is zero. It can be used in all kinds of fields, and a value of zero can be determined, after all 3-3 would be a pretty tough question to answer without zero, the answer is not 'nothing' because that implies there is no answer, it is a set construct which can be created in most standard maths just by subtracting the result.

Basically, zero is a number which behaves oddly under certain circumstances, do a square root of 2 and you'll see it isn't alone

[Polpolion]

do a square root of 2 and you'll see it isn't alone

What's so special about 1.414?

[General Battuta]

So i guess to him space can't be a vacuum then.

Actually, it can't -- the Heisenberg uncertainty principle forbids the energy level of any area of space from being perfectly known, so space, by physical law, has to be a seething froth of virtual particles.

There's really no such thing as a perfect vacuum.

[blackhole]

Yeah, I'm being really subtle.

[Flipside]

do a square root of 2 and you'll see it isn't alone

What's so special about 1.414?

That's a shortened version of it, root 2 is irrational, like PI, it is endless.

Edit: And Blackhole, you should be used to that in GenDis.

[BloodEagle]

*Really huge snip*

Nothing (zero), as I already said, is a placeholder. It exists only in that we (I suppose I should say, 'I', instead) know it to not exist.

In my terms, zero means an absence. Zero was created, as it were, to make mathematic calculations easier.

I believe that I've fully stated my reasoning, and I've yet to see any logical argument that would make me change my mind. Therefore, I shall leave this topic in peace.

----

[image]
Yeah, I'm being really subtle.

Sorry 'bout that.

[Flipside]

Well, if you can't see any logical argument, then it's always best to quit while your ahead and pretend you had the high-ground all along

[Mobius]

Comments like 'zero does not exist' have been the source of much beard-pulling and teeth-gnashing in the mathematical fraternity

It's better to say that zero is a construct, it does exist, but only in the absence of anything normal, and therefore it doesn't obey the same rules

Zero is between negative and positive values, it's just a "bridge". Its existance makes more sense when studying derivations&integrations(I hope I spelt them correctly).

[Flipside]

Yup, it's one of those numbers that has a strange set of rules

The way I see it, just because it is a lack of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it's very existence is fundamental to representing numbers in context. 0 in Binary may mean 'absence of signal', but that absence is every bit (pun intended) as much a part of the Binary number as the '1' is.

[Jeff Vader]

Yet the Roman numerals did not include a zero.

But I have a plan. At some point of my life, I'm going to... divide by zero.

[haloboy100]

I see 0 as a representation of nothing. It's not negative, but it's not positive either. 0 represents absence, but is not actually absence. Just like how the number one represents one object, but you can have several one's at any one time, like how there are 4 1s in the number 1,111.

[Polpolion]

*Really huge snip*

Nothing (zero), as I already said, is a placeholder. It exists only in that we (I suppose I should say, 'I', instead) know it to not exist.

In my terms, zero means an absence. Zero was created, as it were, to make mathematic calculations easier.

I believe that I've fully stated my reasoning, and I've yet to see any logical argument that would make me change my mind. Therefore, I shall leave this topic in peace.

Really? Well I have yet to see any logical response to my argument from someone named BloodEagle. Just a vague, partial restatement of my points and then a statement saying that you disregard any other speculation of the definition  "nothing" or "zero" and choose to believe your opinion.

[Flipside]

Yet the Roman numerals did not include a zero.

Roman Numerals didn't have a symbol to represent zero, but they knew the value of it It was one of the main reasons that particular number system died out.

[watsisname]

Zero means nothing, they are not the same thing, because they are nothing. Nothing has no attributes, and therefore cannot exist. As nothing does not exist, there can be no two nothings. Ergo, zero and nothing are not the same thing.