Poll

???

Scrap it and start work on somthing meaningful
2 (5.3%)
COOL, I WANT TO BE RIPPED APART BY BLACKHOLES!
9 (23.7%)
Do alot more tests on it before we activate it
2 (5.3%)
Activate it, who gives a **** what happens.
6 (15.8%)
Other
1 (2.6%)
"Will the people who aren't physicists who are fearmongering and have no clue what's going on please shut up?"
18 (47.4%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: Personal thoughts on the LHC  (Read 9892 times)

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Offline Kosh

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Quote
That's a very informative page, and what they're saying makes perfect sense. But while I was reading that, my mind couldn't help but think about how small children were sprayed with DDT because it was thought to be safe

I don't think they are quite the same thing. Here's a question for you: If a strangelet chain reaction were possible why haven't we seen any strangelet stars or planets?


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't physics much more grounded in math than the development of DDT?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Shade

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Quote
If the people building the thing are going to draw these arbitrary lines between people and refuse to address the dangers of what they're doing, why the **** should anyone care about what they think? There's this little thing called 'social responsibility' that enables groups of diverse peoples to work together. But I guess all that goes out the window when you get the excitement of building a great big toy, right?
If the dangers hadn't been addressed, I'd agree. But they have been addressed, plus there's the fact of the continual high-energy particle collisions taking place in our atmosphere since the formation of the earth not having killed us yet - 4.5 billion years of experimental evidence to the non-danger of the experiements the LHC will run is fairly compelling. The thing to remember is that the LHC will really just let us observe what already happens in nature, but under controlled circumstances. It's not 'new' in the sense that what's going to take place has never happened before, because it happens all the time pretty much everywhere that space and atmosphere meet... it has just never happened under the eyes of massive detectors with legions of scientists watching other them.

I will admit though that 'idiot' was a rather poor choice of words. It definitely doesn't apply to those who might be worried but have no way to know better, so I apologize for that, though I maintain that those who have access to all the information and continue fearmongering in spite of it might deserve the term.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 12:05:13 am by Shade »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
I don't think they are quite the same thing. Here's a question for you: If a strangelet chain reaction were possible why haven't we seen any strangelet stars or planets?

I believe it's been hypothesized that some neutron stars may in fact be strange-matter stars, but there haven't been any clear observations as of yet. It seems a bit unlikely to me.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Only an idiot would believe it, I agree.. But not because of that. Simple law of action and reaction. Energy.

To destroy Earth you need a f***loads more energy than you put into the HLC.
So, if something goes wrong with the HLC at worst you're get something analogous to a nuke.

Despite what many a sci-fi tells you, you can't pull infinite energy out of thin air, and you can go over 100% matter-energy conversion..so no deathstars, white-hole missiles, planet-ships or black hole generators....

Not true, I'm afraid -- most of the theoretically dangerous things that might come out of the LHC aren't explosions, they're chain reactions of one type or another that could easily destroy the Earth even with a fairly small seed energy.

In this case, you might --  might -- be able to destroy the Earth with just the energy levels present in the LHC. It's all about what you make with that energy.

I don't buy those theories. They go against common sense.
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Offline Shade

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Quote
They go against common sense
Much in physics does :p
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
I don't buy those theories. They go against common sense.


 :wakka:

Sorry, but that's just... oh, wow.

First of all, common sense is highly overrated in physics, particularly particle physics and quantum phenomena (and, to lesser extent in relativity theory). That's because common sense applies to macroscopic world which our brains have adapted to work in, which means pretty much just electromagnetic interaction and gravity. The common sense applies to quantum scale pretty much as much as Kant's categoric imperative applies to a bunch of plankton. Things don't work along common sense just because we'd like that, welcome to the universe. ;)

Secondly, how much energy do you need to explode a bunch of trinitrotoluene, or hexotol?

The question of energy required for "destruction" depends of the definition of destruction. I'd say causing a fundamental matter phase/consistency change and causing things to fall apart to form a lump of particles classifies as destruction, but more of that further on the Strangelet section... it's not the absolute amount of energy that troubles some people, but the "uncertainty" about how that condenced energy will act and react with it's surroundings. "Uncertainty" in quote marks because it's rather certain that the energies produced in LHC won't cause things to fall apart - but aside from that the knowledge is hazy.

So, like said, it's not the question of energy required for complete obliteration that worries some people - all the possible apocalypse hypotheses in this case don't require much energy per ce - except for the black hole argument, in which case it's proposed (AFAIK) that the generated black hole could by chance hit a suitable mass concentration, eat it up, strengthen, eat more and end up groving faster than evaporating as Hawking radiation. But, as pointed out, this chance is unlikely because the LHC pretty much just mimics the already existing high energy particles in controlled environment. It doesn't do anything that the universe isn't doing to us all the time.

Hell, there have been observations about protons that have had kinetic energy equivalence of a brick falling to your feet from about one metre height. LHC can't go anywhere near that kind of energy yield, and there are that kind of particles coming down on us all the time... well, energies that high are rare, but the point is that high energy particles hit each other all the time with higher energies than will happen in LHC experiments, so it's very likely we don't end up destroying the universe.

The other hypothesis of generating strangelet particles doesn't rely on energy either, but rather a transmutative hypothesized nature of these particles. The idea is that these strangelet particles could perhaps be able to change normal matter to strangelet matter, changing the way it behaves, which would pretty much stop or at least change all the chemical reactions and probably cause life as we know it to end. However, there's really no experimental or much of a theoretical basis for this hypothesis - and, again, there's the fact that we're under constant cosmic ray bombardment similar by particles of similar or higher energies that will occur in LHC, and we haven't changed into strangelet particles so far.


I kinda agree on the part that people who don't know how stuff works in particle physics have all right to be a bit worried when some guys flail their hands around with a death note on other and a PhD on other, spouting apocalypse predictions from their mouths (exaggerated for the lulz but you get the picture). It's okay to worry about safety, but on the other hand there's the consensus of the scientific world that "All that will happen in LHC has happened before, and will happen again", and thus far it hasn't caused the destruction of the world.

---

Perhaps it would be good to explain a bit on how LHC works and what it will be doing. Basically it's a circle shaped tunnel with magnets around and vacuum inside. The magnetic and electric field(s) can be used to accelerate and direct charged particles (usually large hadrons like protons) and then they are directed into a bubble chamber* - or other experimental devices such as wire chamber, spark chamber or silicon detectors, depending on the experiment at hand, doesn't really matter in this context though - where they hit other particles, and the actual research will look at what happens when the particles break into other particles, and how they interact with each other.

Now consider that this is, in basics, normal occurrence in universe. The only difference is the scientific equipment around the collision area set up to record events. There is very little probability that the scientists could trigger something that hasn't happened in about 4+ billion years of Earth's existence and cause a fundamental change in matter consistence. Exotic particles are formed and colliding with each other all the time somewhere, the only difference LHC makes is that it can repeat the experiments with constant energy particles and thus the analysis gets more accurate.

It would be possible to just build bubble chambers all over the place and wait for cosmic rays to hit them, but it would be difficult to repeat the experiments to calibrate results because the cosmic ray particles tend to have a lot of variation in energies. Fundamentally there would be nothing different in it, though, and LHC offers the benefit of controlled circumstances and thus a lot more accurate research results.

Cosmic rays will still be researched as well, precisely because even LHC can't build up energies that high.



*Bubble chamber is basically a chamber filled with superheated, transparent liquid - usually hydrogen. When a charged particle traverses through this matter, it creates an ionized path in it's track. This can be photographed by high speed cameras and/or the light flashes registered with other type of sensors with less resolution but more sensitivity. The tracks of particles form pretty lines, curves, spirals and flashes. From the projection of trajectories, it's possible to analyze a lot of properties of the particles - such as mass, spin, electric charge and other stuff.

Wire chamber (or drift chamber) is basically a three-dimensional geiger counter on steroids - it can track higher energy particles better than a bubble chamber, and no photographs are made like in bubble chamber. The research data is pretty much digital.

Spark chamber is a detector based on observing flashes caused by particle interactions.

Silicon detectors are basically diodes or arrays of diodes set to detect varieties of radiation, either particle or electromagnetic.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
I don't buy those theories. They go against common sense.

Heheh, so does a round Earth. You should study some physics, a lot of it is very counterintuitive.

Since I am afraid you won't read Herra Tohtori's excellent post, consider this: how much energy do you need to actually set off a nuclear bomb? Not much -- just an electrical spark to detonate explosives. The bomb's mass then serves as fuel for the blast.

Think of a potentially dangerous event in the accelerator as the 'spark', and the Earth as the fuel.

Get it?



 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Think of a potentially dangerous event in the accelerator as the 'spark', and the Earth as the fuel.


Another good example would be supercooled liquid. It stays liquid when it's kept static, but knock the bottle on the table - or open it - and it frozes. The strangelet hypothesis is quite a lot like that at least in superficial level. In layman's term, LHC would work as a spark or fuse, the stuff generated would work as a catalyst for further reactions that would cause the world to end.

Another sometimes used threat scenario is a phase change of space, which could affect the natural constants and throw the chemical interactions all haywire and effectively kill us (*LHC casts Disintegration on Universe). Or change the three observable space dimensions into four and we could end up turning ourselves inside out. :p Of course, the space-time phase change would propagate at the speed of light so we wouldn't even notice it beforehand, and afterwards we would hardly be in a condition to observe the changes... :lol:

But, again, I have yet to see any arguments on why LHC would be fundamentally different from cosmic radiation and thus be able to cause this feared cycle of destruction, when the universe hasn't been able to finish Earth off, and not because of lack of trying... :drevil:
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
I don't buy those theories. They go against common sense.


 :wakka:

Sorry, but that's just... oh, wow.

What I'm trying to say is that destruction or chain reaction don't just "happen" out of thin air. Special conditions must be met.

A barrel of gasoline will explode if I light it and cause a chain reaction blowing all the other barrels of gasoline I stacked in a neat row. But for that to happen, the barrels must be set in a neat row to begin with. and they don't do that for themselves.

Basicely, nature doesn't usually set things up for a neat catastrophic chain reactions.
Even if you look at the current global warming chain reaction (increased heat - melting water - more steam - even more heat - even more melting) it took 100 years of pollution to get that started.

so no, I don't believe we can effortesly blow up the earth with minimum energy imput.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
What I'm trying to say is that destruction or chain reaction don't just "happen" out of thin air. Special conditions must be met.

And it is proposed (with minimal theoretical basis, but whatever) that the LHC could be what meets those as of yet unknown special conditions.


Quote
A barrel of gasoline will explode if I light it and cause a chain reaction blowing all the other barrels of gasoline I stacked in a neat row. But for that to happen, the barrels must be set in a neat row to begin with. and they don't do that for themselves.

Analogy does not compute, because the hypothesized Strangelet chain reaction phase shift only requires strangelet to interact with matter to convert matter into strangelets, and because the matter of Earth pretty much interacts with itself, then the chain reaction could happen - if it had

Quote
Basicely, nature doesn't usually set things up for a neat catastrophic chain reactions.

Yes it does... it's all just about what you constitute as catastrophic. Critical mass of uranium forming by itself? Plausible. Stars exploding by themselves? All the time... well, seeing the number of stars anyway. Other cataclysms like runaway greenhouse effect on Venus? You bet.

Or even as mundane thing as thin dust spreading evenly on air causing an explosively burning - or flagrating - mix? Oh yes, explosive fires on saws and mills have occurred... Not to mention gases with wide explosive mixture range, like hydrogen. It's almost too easy to have an explosion


However, this analogy doesn't compute either because these all are macroscopic scale phenomena. On micro world it's much more difficult to say with certainty that a chain reaction would be impossible, plausible or possible. We just don't know enough about that stuff to know with certainty, and without experiments like LHC will never do...

Quote
Even if you look at the current global warming chain reaction (increased heat - melting water - more steam - even more heat - even more melting) it took 100 years of pollution to get that started.

There's a lot of discussion on whether the climate warming is powering itself, to what extent it's powered by natural change and to what extent by human actions. It doesn't belong to this conversation though, so I'll pass it with saying that the analogy does not apply here either, because of macroscopic chaotic effects versus quantum scale unknown hypothesized phenomena.

Quote
so no, I don't believe we can effortesly blow up the earth with minimum energy imput.


I agree with your opinion but fundamentally disagree with your reasoning... weird, huh.

Basically, I think it'd take some bloody bad luck to be able to cause any harm by high energy particles from LHC, not because of some specific effort-taking requirements for a destruction to be possible to happen, but because the energized particles will be pretty much identical to low/mid -energy cosmic radiation, and that hasn't caused any of the described scenes of destruction for the time being.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
What I'm trying to say is that destruction or chain reaction don't just "happen" out of thin air. Special conditions must be met.

Yeah, to echo something Herra said -- you're missing the point, which is that, in the case of strangelet matter, the ordinary matter Earth is made of is set up for just such a chain reaction.

The right kind of strange matter, contacting normal matter, converts it into more strange matter. See? The chain reaction conditions have already been met; we're just waiting for a trigger.

Again, as Herra said, it seems pretty unlikely that the trigger conditions will come out of the LHC, since high-energy cosmic rays are in the same energy range.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
What I'm trying to say is that destruction or chain reaction don't just "happen" out of thin air. Special conditions must be met.

And it is proposed (with minimal theoretical basis, but whatever) that the LHC could be what meets those as of yet unknown special conditions.

I'll believe it when I see it.. F'course it won't matter much then, won't it? :lol:

Just FYI - I'm very sceptical of all the new theories regarding the microscopic, subatomic phenomena, because it's all so much guesswork and theories, and very little or no actual proof.


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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
No real way to know what'll do unless you turn it on. And realistically speaking some kind of accident is more likely to result in a very impressive explosion than the end of the world (accidental matter-antimatter reaction ftw?) but the odds are low even for that. We can go cower in our basements or we can make progress.

So, in summary: Start the reactor, Quaid!
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
[...]

I don't think they are quite the same thing. Here's a question for you: If a strangelet chain reaction were possible why haven't we seen any strangelet stars or planets?

Dark matter? Atmospheric radiation? The fact that we can only see a small portion of our galaxy? Time dilation combined with the fact that we can only see a small portion of the known universe?  :nervous:

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't physics much more grounded in math than the development of DDT?

Er.... Wouldn't it be the other way around?  :confused:

Either way....

I'm not saying that life as we know it will end if they push that button. In fact, I'm sure it won't.

But it's the principle of the matter.

--------------------------------------------------

Just FYI - I'm very sceptical of all the new theories regarding the microscopic, subatomic phenomena, because it's all so much guesswork and theories, and very little or no actual proof.

Theories like Hawking Radiation?

I'm not trying to say that Hawking Radiation doesn't exist, but I haven't heard of any experiment where it has been proven to exist. And isn't Hawking Radiation the only thing that would keep a blackhole from forming?

--------------------------------------------------

Random question: What are the odds of a microscopic blackhole actually forming from collided particles?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
What I'm trying to say is that destruction or chain reaction don't just "happen" out of thin air. Special conditions must be met.

And it is proposed (with minimal theoretical basis, but whatever) that the LHC could be what meets those as of yet unknown special conditions.

I'll believe it when I see it.. F'course it won't matter much then, won't it? :lol:

Just FYI - I'm very sceptical of all the new theories regarding the microscopic, subatomic phenomena, because it's all so much guesswork and theories, and very little or no actual proof.

Are you referring to the Standard Model? That's been rigorously tested and there's a lot of proof.

If you're referring to string theory, then yes, there hasn't been much tested.

Could you please specify which theories you're skeptical of?

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Just FYI - I'm very sceptical of all the new theories regarding the microscopic, subatomic phenomena, because it's all so much guesswork and theories, and very little or no actual proof.


There's so much wrong in this statement that I don't even know where to begin with.

It's pretty much like this: How in the name of Invisible Pink Unicorn's and Flying Spaghetti Monster's offspring is guesswork going to result in predictions corresponding with experimental results to tenth decimal accuracy? Because that's what Quantum Electrodynamics (QED) can do in the case of electroweak interaction, and Quantum Chromodynamics (QCD) in case of strong interaction. Contrary to popular belief, these theories have a lot of empirical data to support them. There are tools to observe sub-atomic events with relatively high accuracy. The increased energy provided by LHC will mainly allow the experiments to break particles to smaller and weirder [further from normal matter] building blocks of matter.


And what comes to "proving" things such as string theory[ies] and other, more recent theories (that are mostly necessary to incorporate gravity model into quantum theory) I recommend taking a look at currently dominant philosophy of science. It's called positivism and it was deviced by Karl Popper (et al) to formulate the fundamental thought processes that make science science. Basically, positivism in physics means that if a theory describes the physical reality in the most accurate manner available it can be considered best available theory and, thus, the most true theory available. If there are two theories that predict events with the same degree of accuracy but other is notably simpler than the other, the simpler one beats the more complex - usually.

However, we will never ever have actual proof (beyond test results) whether the abstractions behind any mathematic model are fundamentally correct further than we can see that the results corresponding with reality. For all we know, the Flying Spaghetti Monster moves all particles with His Noodly Appendages and/or affects all sensors and experimental devices so that we get the image of a complex reality with some deep underlying set of rules. We can't know if that's the case. The only thing we can know is the reality and how well a theory corresponds to it.

There is no truth in physics, and physics really can't anwer the questions "how" and "why" on the very fundamental level of certainty. It can answer the question "what" with very high accuracy, but there will always be some degree of uncertainty to whether the explanations behind the mathematics of any theory are actually "correct". Physics just ignores that uncertainty and leaves it to be handled by metaphysics. ;7
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 04:45:16 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
What I'm trying to say is that destruction or chain reaction don't just "happen" out of thin air. Special conditions must be met.

And it is proposed (with minimal theoretical basis, but whatever) that the LHC could be what meets those as of yet unknown special conditions.

I'll believe it when I see it.. F'course it won't matter much then, won't it? :lol:

Just FYI - I'm very sceptical of all the new theories regarding the microscopic, subatomic phenomena, because it's all so much guesswork and theories, and very little or no actual proof.




You really have no idea what a theory is, do you?

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
I have... FYI, I had studied quantum mechanics and similar level physics, alltough I haven't exactly specified what theories I was reffering to.

Meh, doesn't matter anyway.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
I have... FYI, I had studied quantum mechanics and similar level physics, alltough I haven't exactly specified what theories I was reffering to.

Meh, doesn't matter anyway.

You're right. Your post was ridiculously stupid regardless.

 

Offline Inquisitor

Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Herra:

Its been a really long time since I saw anyone put it that succinctly. I plan on quoting you for the indefinite future.
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