Poll

???

Scrap it and start work on somthing meaningful
2 (5.3%)
COOL, I WANT TO BE RIPPED APART BY BLACKHOLES!
9 (23.7%)
Do alot more tests on it before we activate it
2 (5.3%)
Activate it, who gives a **** what happens.
6 (15.8%)
Other
1 (2.6%)
"Will the people who aren't physicists who are fearmongering and have no clue what's going on please shut up?"
18 (47.4%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: Personal thoughts on the LHC  (Read 9889 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
I have... FYI, I had studied quantum mechanics and similar level physics, alltough I haven't exactly specified what theories I was reffering to.

Meh, doesn't matter anyway.

Do you have a response to Herra's post?

I would be eager to hear it, since it seems to address some of the more salient points you've brought up.

I find it hard to believe you've studied these topics if you're not aware of the topics Herra discussed there.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
To be honest, there are a lot of hypothesized portions in a lot of the most recent theories - mainly because of previous lack of research equipment to increase the collision energies and actually confirm the existence - or nonexistence - of some hypothetical particles and actually empirically measure how they behave and what they do. The most famous of these is, of course, the Higgs' boson, which should either be found or not with the LHC, and that will pretty much spell the direction for quantum physics as far as gravity goes. If it's found, the Standard Model of particle physics is one step closer to be the grand unified theory. If it's not found, some people are going to start calculating their asses off to find new models to describe gravitation in quantum terms... and to define what went wrong, mainly the string theoristas.

Ironically, I can't say which would be bigger deal, proving the Higgs' boson's existence or it's non-existence. For it not to be found, something would be seriously wrong in the string theory[ies] that predict it... in fact it might even point to gravity being somewhat of a continuous phenomenon instead of being as readily quanticizeable as other interactions. Fields vs. quanta, the eternal battle in modern physics... :D
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Offline Mika

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Quote
Ironically, I can't say which would be bigger deal, proving the Higgs' boson's existence or it's non-existence. For it not to be found, something would be seriously wrong in the string theory[ies] that predict it... in fact it might even point to gravity being somewhat of a continuous phenomenon instead of being as readily quanticizeable as other interactions. Fields vs. quanta, the eternal battle in modern physics...

Again I cannot keep my mouth shut about modern physics. Part of my guts says that the unification trouble is partly because the spacetime is not too well understood. For some reason I always get the feeling that the quantum physics implies quantized space, but of course I have never seen Quantum Physics integrals related to the space-dimensions reduced to summations. Or, maybe it is actually time itself which we don't understand too well.

Many worlds theories turn out to be the most difficult to swallow. I mean, a single photon interferes with the copies of itself located in other universums, and the resulting interference pattern is the summation result of all those photon paths. For me this causes a huge philosophical problem, i.e. why is the result repeatable, but since I have never read about the maths of many worlds stuff, I suspect I don't understand it too well. But let's not go too far into this.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Well, my intuition keeps yelling at me that the curvature of space-time is continuous, not quanticized, even though the matter and energy that causes the curvature does come in quantifiable state. Not unlike the fact that the spectrum of EM radiation is continuous even though the radiation itself is quanticized. Meaning that photons come at every wavelengths, not just in certain increments...

...unless you want to consider Planck's length as an increment. It is possibly that against all my raging intuitive deductive powers the universe still dares to be digital [=quanticized] in all regards, but it may as well not be. Who the hell knows. :rolleyes:

It also keeps telling me that the idea of singularities is fundamentally flawed. Considering singularities to exist as physical objects instead of non-computable situations in a theory does not really convince me. The biggest problem I have with them is related to event horizons and the nature of space inside them. According to my understanding, the distance from the event horizon's edge to the hypothetic center point (where the singularity should form to) is infinite due to the extreme curvature [=local volume increase and time stretching] of space-time. This can be interpreted in a way that the center point doesn't actually exist, which leads to the assumption that all the points inside space limited by the event horizon are equal in terms of distance to center point... and, confusingly, the event horizon.

I personally assume that when an event horizon forms, it forms a stable space-time structure and seals the outside apart from inside with a one-way connection, the inside becoming some sort of a warp bubble of space, and the energy of the black hole is approximately evenly spread into that space. The volume of the space is defined by the absolute energy of the hole, but much like the observable universe, it would be an edgeless but finite space.

Conversely, I don't know if the quantum range errors in general relativity have been compensated with how the energies of particles increase the volume of space-time around them, which basically causes the distance between two particles to actually be slightly longer than when measured looking from the side. This discrepancy between the apparent distance and real distance between particles would increase when the distances got smaller and smaller. And my intuition keeps telling me that this could very well be some kind of way to get rid of infinite forces [=singularities] in gravitation theories. Sadly, I don't really know the mathematics for either general relativity or quantum gravitation theories, so all I have is a bunch of handwavium...

Besides, my intuition is known to have been wrong before. It's the simian macroscopic brain getting messed up with nonsensical events of microcosmos... ;7


Interestingly, there's been some speculation that the universe would be a simulation. If that were the case, the digital nature of... nature would make a whole lot more sense but open a whole another can of worms in the form of the question "by where does the situation run"?

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Review - RealLife(TM) MMORPG

Gameplay 6 - The learning curve is way too steep. The options for character creation are nonexistant and almost everything is randomized at the beginning of the game. The game is pretty boring in the beginning, but if you play it right, you can get some choice over a few interesting main Quest lines for the midgame... there's also an annoying and unavoidable minigame before you get there though, starting about 11-14 cycles after the start of game that makes it really challenging to get a good main Quest line for the mid-game. Most Quest lines are rather uninteresting and dull, the truly interesting ones take a lot of studying, practice and concentration from you to even be accepted to do them in the first place. Perhaps the most annoying thing is that due to inefficient AI, the computer characters have made the randomized spawning places very uneven, which results in some games having incredible difficulty level and you'll take a lot of time to roll the dice to get favourable starting conditions. Sometimes the game only lasts a few hours. In fact, most of the time the game never catches up to what it was supposed to be.

As an interesting twist, the game normally doesn't allow you to retain normal memory during the game, but there is a cheat code for that too... but in the name of all that's good and holy DON'T EVER reveal your status to the NPC's in dialogue. They will either kill you straight or make you their God and then kill you anyway. Then they will kill each other in your name and wreak general havoc.

Graphics 9 - a bit unrealistic but most of the time pretty cool

Story 2 - No storyline, just dynamic continuous campaign. If it wasn't autogenerated, it would be so unbelievable that it would simply be laughable. The interactions between game characters are mostly awkward and completely stupid, but at least this provides the players with endless amount of lulz when the countries invade others based on what their leaders say (!).

Sounds 7 - pretty nice for most of time, but there are a lot of annoyances and degradation as the game proceeds.

Physics 5 - accurate for the most parts, but some of the most interesting quests offer interesting chances to find the glitches on small scale simulation. Also, the natural constants are a bit unbalanced seeing how the traveling speed is limited to ridiculously small velocity under normal conditions (see the cheat codes to bypass this issue) and the fact that the CG characters have actually learned how to take advantage of them and build ridiculously unbalanced weapons that no one really wants to even use. The limited amount of dimensions makes normal gameplay simplified but not overly dumbed down touch.

AI 7 - pretty smart for the most parts, but social interaction has no rational behaviour model whatsoever. Points for unpredictability, though.

Pros: Unpredictable. A lot of replayable content at the cost of unfair gameplay dynamics. NPC interactions are amusing, if not wholly realistic.

Cons: Unrealistic, boring and tedious MMORPG simulator. Doesn't live up to the hype. Buy for knowing what everyone's talking about, but aside from that, avoid it.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Quote
According to my understanding, the distance from the event horizon's edge to the hypothetic center point (where the singularity should form to) is infinite due to the extreme curvature [=local volume increase and time stretching] of space-time. This can be interpreted in a way that the center point doesn't actually exist, which leads to the assumption that all the points inside space limited by the event horizon are equal in terms of distance to center point... and, confusingly, the event horizon.

Why would it behave this way? Consider the situation with a massive object, which would be extremely close to form a black hole. Does the spacetime behave that way in this case?

Quote
Conversely, I don't know if the quantum range errors in general relativity have been compensated with how the energies of particles increase the volume of space-time around them, which basically causes the distance between two particles to actually be slightly longer than when measured looking from the side. This discrepancy between the apparent distance and real distance between particles would increase when the distances got smaller and smaller. And my intuition keeps telling me that this could very well be some kind of way to get rid of infinite forces [=singularities] in gravitation theories. Sadly, I don't really know the mathematics for either general relativity or quantum gravitation theories, so all I have is a bunch of handwavium...

Here, I recall discussing the lines like these with people from a theoretical Physics department. I was left with an impression that the smaller the particle(not the atom scale, but quark scale) you look, the more it should form a black hole all by itself.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Hellstryker

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Herra makes my brain hurt...  :( In a good way, but still.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
The problem with modern science is this:

Take a look at the computer you are typing at. The chances are there is not one single person who truly understands how every part on that computer works or connects. There is probably not one single programmer who could understand Windows as a complete entity, even if they understand certain parts of it perfectly. Science has got to the point where it is too big for one brain to hold, and that makes people nervous, because nobody ever really has a complete picture of what is going on.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Quote
According to my understanding, the distance from the event horizon's edge to the hypothetic center point (where the singularity should form to) is infinite due to the extreme curvature [=local volume increase and time stretching] of space-time. This can be interpreted in a way that the center point doesn't actually exist, which leads to the assumption that all the points inside space limited by the event horizon are equal in terms of distance to center point... and, confusingly, the event horizon.

Why would it behave this way? Consider the situation with a massive object, which would be extremely close to form a black hole. Does the spacetime behave that way in this case?


Okay, as a disclaimer I have to say that the following is pretty much pure handwavium with no mathematical build up, so you don't want to consider this as accurate representation of reality. But this is in a nutshell how I visualize to particles close to each other...




The particles form their own small dents into the space-time continuum. On the "rubber plane" analogy, the flat plane corresponds to euclidian, flat space which has the smallest possible volume since all it's dimensions are perpendicular to each other. When the rubber plane is bent under tension, it curves and it's area grows via stretching. In space-time, the tension caused by mass/energy causes similar phenomenon - the space-time curves but since instead of two space dimensions measurable on a plane it has three space dimensions, the volume of space grows instead of area (since all dimensions, width, height and length are subject to same tension and stretching). Time undergoes similar stretching, but when looking at still frames it can be largely ignored (at least usually)... Anyhow, the reason why it's difficult to visualize curving space time is because we still see the dimensions perpendicular to each other, and observe the curving as changed volume of the space around and inside a concentration of mass.

This causes for example the distance to Earth's center point to be slightly more than Earth's apparent diameter divided by two, because the curved space-time increases the volume and distance slightly. The difference is of magnitude of couple centimetres if I recall correctly. When the curvature grows, the discrepancy between observed lengths and true lengths along the space-time grows.

Following this visualization of curving and stretching of space-time, the event horizon is a weird thing because it's apparently a sphere shaped "crust" with a diameter, but as a result of rather intensive stretching of space-time due to dense mass concentration, the actual distance to the center of the event horizon's spherical form is, according to my understanding (which could obviously be as wrong as can be, but whatever), infinite. This little feature of the inner space of event horizons makes them rather interesting IMHO since infinite distance to the center point means that every point inside event horizon has the same (infinite) distance to the center point, which pretty much means they are equal in this sense and all of them are the center point. And if there's no measurable direction to the center point, why would there be any direction where stuff would fall to?

Again, I personally think that there are no singularities inside black holes' horizons, but instead the horizon is some kind of stable space-time formation which forms an amount of space inside itself with the following properties:

1. the distance to center and event horizon is the same from each point inside event horizon
2. the volume of the space inside a horizon is defined by the total energy of the black hole

As to what happens to the matter that falls into the hole, I suspect that the energy of the black hole is divided approximately homogenously to the space inside and can be transferred outside the horizon via Hawking radiation. In other words, the insides of a black hole would be approximately isotropic and homogenous.

Further more, since the amount of volume inside the horizon is defined by the total mass/energy of the system, it would mean that increasing mass would cause the space inside the horizon to expand. The expansion rate would be exponential at the moments after the birth of the black hole and it's event horizon, afterwards it would be defined by the accumulation of matter around the event horizon - since it won't really penetrate it, it will form kinda accretion crust which will by gravitational effect increase the diameter of the event horizon AND the space inside it, but won't really ever fall through the horizon... and some of you might know that the gravitational effect of a symmetric sphere crust to the outside is identical to the mass concentrated to a point at the center.

Some of you might have noticed that there are some remarkable similarities between this model of black holes intestines and our observable universe. This is not a coincidence... :drevil:


I really have to stress though that you should by no means take this for granted. I don't *know* if this corresponds to reality in any sense. It feels like it makes sense, but we all know how reliable that measure is with physics.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 04:02:16 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Mika

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Quote
Following this visualization of curving and stretching of space-time, the event horizon is a weird thing because it's apparently a sphere shaped "crust" with a diameter, but as a result of rather intensive stretching of space-time due to dense mass concentration, the actual distance to the center of the event horizon's spherical form is, according to my understanding (which could obviously be as wrong as can be, but whatever), infinite.

And here it is where it goes wrong. Why would it become infinite? Compare it to a massive object just above the Schwarzschild radius. You can theoretically get out of there (neglecting some real limitations of course), and you can calculate the fall time to the center. Why would the black hole be any different from it?

I'll write some more about this when I get the inspiration.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
[Neo]Whoaaah.....[/Neo]

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Quote
Following this visualization of curving and stretching of space-time, the event horizon is a weird thing because it's apparently a sphere shaped "crust" with a diameter, but as a result of rather intensive stretching of space-time due to dense mass concentration, the actual distance to the center of the event horizon's spherical form is, according to my understanding (which could obviously be as wrong as can be, but whatever), infinite.

And here it is where it goes wrong. Why would it become infinite? Compare it to a massive object just above the Schwarzschild radius. You can theoretically get out of there (neglecting some real limitations of course), and you can calculate the fall time to the center. Why would the black hole be any different from it?

I'll write some more about this when I get the inspiration.
Mika

I believe that the answer lies in what happens to spacetime when the escape velocity exceeds lightspeed.  You'd need to get into the math of general relativity to get a solid answer, I'd guess.

I know that black holes are often taught in introductory GR courses, so it can't be that complex.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Yeah next thing you know people will be afraid of nuclear reactors and genetically modified organisms. :rolleyes:

Seriously, if they want to build a particle accelerator they need to at least TRY to alliviate some fears from ordinary people.

As with any scientific endeavor people need to ask if it's really advancing humanity, or just their own carriers . What good does it do us, really, at this stage in our development?

It might do us a lot of good, it might not

 

Offline Rian

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC

*quoted stuff*

I believe that the answer lies in what happens to spacetime when the escape velocity exceeds lightspeed.  You'd need to get into the math of general relativity to get a solid answer, I'd guess.

I know that black holes are often taught in introductory GR courses, so it can't be that complex.

You have to look at the situation differently depending on whether you’re observing from a great distance or actually falling into the black hole. The event horizon isn’t a physical object or wall that you cross – if you were falling in, you wouldn’t necessarily notice any difference as you crossed the event horizon. You wouldn’t turn into light or anything like that at all – you might be killed by tidal forces or something, depending on what kind of black hole it is, and in fact (I believe) could theoretically get all the way to the center intact depending on the conditions. (and yes, you would eventually reach it.)

People often use a river analogy to describe this: if you’re being carried along by the current, and it’s gradually accelerating, you don’t necessarily notice the point where you can no longer swim against it. At one point you could turn around and go back upstream if you wanted, and at the next you might just find yourself swimming in place without actually going anywhere. But if you just go with the flow you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.

A distant observer would see the fall as infinite, because the coordinate system that describes the curvature of space near massive objects no longer applies at the event horizon (you end up with a whole lot of divide-by-zeros). To the person falling into the black hole, nothing appears to change once this boundary is crossed, but the distant observer would see the faller "frozen" on the event horizon until the he’s redshifted out of the visible spectrum and vanishes.

  

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
You have to look at the situation differently depending on whether you’re observing from a great distance or actually falling into the black hole. The event horizon isn’t a physical object or wall that you cross – if you were falling in, you wouldn’t necessarily notice any difference as you crossed the event horizon. You wouldn’t turn into light or anything like that at all – you might be killed by tidal forces or something, depending on what kind of black hole it is, and in fact (I believe) could theoretically get all the way to the center intact depending on the conditions. (and yes, you would eventually reach it.)


Who fell into black hole and sent back the information that yes, you will eventually reach the center/surface of whatever it is behind the event horizon? :p

I'll admit again that I don't really know the mathematics of general relativity space-time, but conceptually I [think I] have a pretty strong grasp on what is happening to the space and time when they are affected by gravity.

The discrepancy between the observations of static and falling observers is pretty much the only thing in relativity that doesn't add up to me. It's the classic question between whether physical reality or our observations and interpretations of them are affected by the relativistic effects.

There is a difference between the relatively [pun absolutely intended] simple differences of time and length based on relative speed in special relativity, but the effets of mass/energy as described in general relativity are, in fact, not very relative at all when you look at things like the clocks in GPS satellites going faster than the same clocks on Earth, and the gravitational lens effects caused by massive objects in space. Mass really does affect the passage of time at different locations, and it really affects the relative volume of the space close to itself.

I know that event horizon isn't any kind of physical object, but it is a boundary of sorts - when you approach it, you wouldn't reach it because the local volume of space around the horizon increases a lot... the most notable change would be that the amount of space would increase... there would also be other effects such as straight arks of papers bending into curved shapes, and if you had a straight piece of paper and drew a triangle on it, it's angles would sum up to something more than 180 degrees. And pi being smaller than 3.14159265.... As a more alarming side-effect, the volume of space limited by your normal shape would increase, which would cause your internal pressure to decrease (same amount of tissue in increased volume equals less pressure), and eventually you would resemble a deformed and crumpled scarecrow... or if you somehow forced your body to stay in same shape, you would suffer from extreme decompression sickness.

Conversely, the passage of time would result in the clock of the falling observer going slower and slower as the event horizon approached. That too would be just as real as the gravitational time dilatation that causes global positioning satellites' clocks to go slower than clocks lower on the gravitational potential (closer to mass concentration).

This would actually cause the universe to end in a slow thermal death before the falling observer had enough time (literally) to reach the event horizon.

Obviously, considering the observations made by the falling observer, he or she wouldn't notice anything out of ordinary as far as passage of time were concerned - as the observer's velocity increases, he or she would just reach the pulses from a clock at static "altitude" reach the faller with more and more gap in them. However, I suspect that as the gravitational time dilatation caught up to doppler effect, the beacon would start to send the pulses faster and faster, so the situation would appear as nominal [all f***ed up of course] to the observer. Until being splatted by the changed geometry of space-time around and inside him or her...

Quote
People often use a river analogy to describe this: if you’re being carried along by the current, and it’s gradually accelerating, you don’t necessarily notice the point where you can no longer swim against it. At one point you could turn around and go back upstream if you wanted, and at the next you might just find yourself swimming in place without actually going anywhere. But if you just go with the flow you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.

Doesn't really apply here, because it's more like you're floating in a river that looks like it has constant width, but instead as you float along, you would notice the river is wider and wider as you approached the event horizon (dare I say waterfall? :p), and you would end up floating in an ocean, going towards a waterfall at the end of the world but you would still never reach it...


Quote
A distant observer would see the fall as infinite, because the coordinate system that describes the curvature of space near massive objects no longer applies at the event horizon (you end up with a whole lot of divide-by-zeros). To the person falling into the black hole, nothing appears to change once this boundary is crossed, but the distant observer would see the faller "frozen" on the event horizon until the he’s redshifted out of the visible spectrum and vanishes.

That business with div by zero error is partially what makes me thing that the event horizon isn't just an arbitrary line drawn in the space-time continuum as the escape velocity c -mark, but rather when that kind of escape velocity appears, the space-time forms a V amount of space inside the event horizon, separate from the outside apart from gravitational effects and Hawking radiation. I don't know how it actually makes it - though possibly if you think along the rubber plane analogy, the plane would curve into a toroidal form after the event horizon, coiling into itself and forming a continuous, boundless but finite space.

As to whether anything would change for an observer falling through the event horizon, it's kinda hard to swallow that nothing would change when the General Relativity pretty much states that you end up with a lot of div by zeroes when you try to as much as describe the space beyond the red line (happens sometimes with the other one too... :D), and then people try to say you wouldn't notice anything different in space itself...

...let's just say I am not convinced with that line of reasoning and be done with it. :blah: ;)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 09:14:32 am by Herra Tohtori »
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Quote
Following this visualization of curving and stretching of space-time, the event horizon is a weird thing because it's apparently a sphere shaped "crust" with a diameter, but as a result of rather intensive stretching of space-time due to dense mass concentration, the actual distance to the center of the event horizon's spherical form is, according to my understanding (which could obviously be as wrong as can be, but whatever), infinite.

And here it is where it goes wrong. Why would it become infinite? Compare it to a massive object just above the Schwarzschild radius. You can theoretically get out of there (neglecting some real limitations of course), and you can calculate the fall time to the center. Why would the black hole be any different from it?

Well, I can try.... :shaking: :nervous:

We have an object of mass M at static state, with enough internal pressure to have stopped it's collapse into small enough volume to create sufficiently violent energy tensor to result in an event horizon. The distance to the center of a mssive object is measurable and finite r, but it is a lot more than the apparent diameter divided by two (or circumference divided by 2*pi), due to the increase in space-time curvature-induced volume (or whatever the balls you want to call it). As you slowly increase the mass (or density) of the object right to the limit, the distance to centerpoint will approact infinite and at the moment when the event horizon forms, it will become infinite. Or rather, the space inside the event horizon marker will form it's own entity of boundless but finite space, whose volume is defined by the amount of energy of the hole.


Normally you wouldn't see this kind of stop-motion situations when a black hole forms up - I suspect that most of the time an event horizon forms around the core of a collapsing star when critical energy tensor values are reached, then whatever is inside the horizon remains there and the rest of the star will fall towards the horizon - but never quite get under it's skin - and quite possibly this crunch immediately after the formation of the horizon would send out quite a lot of high energy gamma rays... oh wait a second. ;7


I'm starting to detect a low degree All-Potential-Explanatorism in my hypotheses here. Basically it means that I'm becoming so convinced in my hypothesis that I'm starting to see a lot of stuff be caused by it, whether they actually are or not. In the extreme cases, the afflicted person will end up saying that everything is explained in his or her groundbreaking new theory and basically just applies moar handwavium to "explain" each argument that questions the theory's integrity.

When it happens to other people, I'm annoyed to endless depths by it... :blah: :sigh: If you're Finnish and want to see some extreme cases, go to www.tiede.fi/keskustelut and look up some stuff by Jukris/JouluPukkiSavosta/Savor (they are all the nicks of same person, banned save for the last incarnation).

Sooo... I'm gonna try and take a bit more detached position in this thread for now, let my head cool down from the self-assured heights of the ivory tower of my mind and do something civilizing, like playing IL-2 Sturmovik.

Actually, you know what? Why don't we talk about LHC instead of whether my hypothesis has any correspondence to reality? We can continue the debate at a dedicated thread or via PM's.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Herra, if you aren't familiar with the math of general relativity, then Rian's got you pretty seriously outclassed. I'd be inclined to go with her explanation -- especially considering where the 'current' metaphor comes from.

I don't buy your personal theories, and she's definitely got reliable sources.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 06:29:48 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
Herra, if you aren't familiar with the math of general relativity, then Rian's got you pretty seriously outclassed. I'd be inclined to go with her explanation -- especially considering where the 'current' metaphor comes from.


Quote
I'm becoming so convinced in my hypothesis that I'm starting to see a lot of stuff be caused by it, whether they actually are or not.

There you have it. Rationally, I know that I shouldn't be making any kinds of statements about a branch of physics in which I don't know the mathematic formulation of the theory, based only on intuition and deduction which more than likely feed each other off once they get into wrong direction, but I can't help myself. I'm kinda stupid that way.

I'll have to wait and see what I can make of this when I get into GR maths and the interactions between space-time and mass... although AFAIK in GR the interaction is pretty much one-way and space-time acts more like just reference frame for stuff to happen in than a semi-actively partaking entity. Basically, with my current knowledge level I can't determine the faults in my hypotheses any better than their alleged correctness, but my mind convinces me that they are correct. That's why I added the handwavium disclaimer before getting into it.
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Offline blackhole

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
I think that when a thread in general discussion starts talking about the mathematics of General Relativity, its probably off-topic, and a BRAIN-ASPLODE! hazard.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
From what I know of GR, spacetime is an active participant -- as the mantra goes, 'matter tells space how to bend, space tells matter how to move'. Local curvature is very important.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Personal thoughts on the LHC
From what I know of GR, spacetime is an active participant -- as the mantra goes, 'matter tells space how to bend, space tells matter how to move'. Local curvature is very important.

Yeah, but that's kinda self-explanatory behaviour for a reference frame. Defines what is a straight line for a photon to travel etcetera. By active behaviour I meant something along the lines of space's own qualities causing, say, inertia.

Einstein didn't think space caused inertia. He was an advocate of Mach's principle, which I personally disagree with. I think it would make a whole lot more sense if inertia was the reason of space's qualities... or, in quantum terms, interaction with Higgs' field. Whichever approach works a lot better than Mach's principle. Although the Higgs' field could possibly be regarded as the gravitational effect of all mass in the universe, but in my opinion it would still be more credible as space-time's own quality...
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