[IceFire]

Ok so don't destroy any turrets in Bearbaiting and watch how quickly it goes down there.  Or just put them together in FRED and watch what happens.  Its a significant difference and its not unlike the Lilith versus its counterparts....

[AlphaOne]

Oh yeah sure so here in the red corner we have a 50 kg midget for the title of heavy weight champion at sumo. In the Blue corner we have a 180kg world heavy wight champion sumowrestler .

After just 1 minyte ladies and gentleman the midget managed to lift the 180kg plater to a height of over 2 metters and then ram him to the floor thus becoming heavy weight champion of the world.

Its ridiculous. A lilth can take donw  a FRAKING DESTROYER . the Lilith is a CRUISER .

Cruisers shivan or not should not be able to take down with realative ease a fracking DESTROYER .

Thats is like sayng that the Collie can take out by its own a shivan jugg with just 2 beam cannons before the Sathani has enough time to inflict even 25% dammage.

the Lilith is realy a gameplay unbalacing ship. Wanna equal the odds? Oki then give the Aeoulus Mjolnir beam cannons at least one of them. Sure it might still get lown away but at least this way it will do some dammage. Hell with just a tini bit of luck it could actualy win if by any chance it hits the front of the ship and takes out the shivan LRed. Ive seen that happen on acasions on some campaigns altough not too often and never 2 times in a row or at the same time interval. (what gives? )

[Droid803]

Uh, what do you propose to do with it then?
It's made by . It's canon. It's LRed is canon.
Plus, its not that deadly. A single fighter can render it inert in a matter of seconds (4-5 trebs)

[AlphaOne]

Man that is not the Point i can defang the Deimos in a matter of seconds too with trebs . Hell i can render the Collie just a big chunk of useless hull in a few minutes and with enough trebs . that is not the Issue here.

Also im not stating that it is not cannon. Im just sayng that such a ship is really really out of place with its other ships of the class. At least they should of named it some sorth of special heavy weapons platform.

[Droid803]

SCv Lilith
Happy?

Its more or less equal to a corvette in armor and firepower anyway.

[AlphaOne]

Almost but not quite there i would say. I never said its not cannon i just said its ridiculous.

[Akalabeth Angel]

the Lilith is realy a gameplay unbalacing ship. Wanna equal the odds? Oki then give the Aeoulus Mjolnir beam cannons at least one of them. Sure it might still get lown away but at least this way it will do some dammage. Hell with just a tini bit of luck it could actualy win if by any chance it hits the front of the ship and takes out the shivan LRed. Ive seen that happen on acasions on some campaigns altough not too often and never 2 times in a row or at the same time interval. (what gives? )

     The Lilith appears in one mission in FS2. Did it unbalance the mission?

[AlphaOne]

youre getting on my nerves with your narrow minded cannon thinking . Go away. If we see it once LOGIC dictates it is gooing to appear more then ONCE.

[Akalabeth Angel]

youre getting on my nerves with your narrow minded cannon thinking . Go away. If we see it once LOGIC dictates it is gooing to appear more then ONCE.

      Freespace 2 isn't a card game. The balance of a mission is in the hands of the FRED designer, if the mission is unbalanced its the fault of the FREDder not the ships within the mission.

[blowfish]

CANON is the only reliable thing we have to go by in these discussions.

A lot of FS1 ships appear only once in FS2 (Typhon, Lilith, etc).

When you consider it, the Lilith does seem a little too powerful, when considering its size.  It seems much more like a corvette than a cruiser, it certainly is not deployed like other cruisers, but if used correctly it does not upset balance.  What upsets balance is using it like any other cruiser, something no decent campaign would do.

[AlphaOne]

youre getting on my nerves with your narrow minded cannon thinking . Go away. If we see it once LOGIC dictates it is gooing to appear more then ONCE.

      Freespace 2 isn't a card game. The balance of a mission is in the hands of the FRED designer, if the mission is unbalanced its the fault of the FREDder not the ships within the mission.

Gooing by the same LOGIC AND COMMON SENCE (since you like this common sence so much but really lack much of it) if i were to design a ship that is half the size of a corvette but has more firepower then 2 Collies pu toghether such a ship would not be unbalanced and ridiculous bu rather if by ani chance it happens to win agains several destroyers at once it a mere technical issue of how the mission was designed correct?

Gooing by this arguement (oh please god let other agree with him) anyone can make ani ship he wants no matter how ridiculous and overpowerd it is and such a ship would not be at fault but rather the way it is deployed?

Hey TMan you had some very good designs that ppl kept bashing you about beeing a bit too much did you not? See some ppl actualy believe such ships are and should be considered good and balanced.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Gooing by the same LOGIC AND COMMON SENCE (since you like this common sence so much but really lack much of it) if i were to design a ship that is half the size of a corvette but has more firepower then 2 Collies pu toghether such a ship would not be unbalanced and ridiculous bu rather if by ani chance it happens to win agains several destroyers at once it a mere technical issue of how the mission was designed correct?

       Actually going by common sense a race as old as the Shivans should be able to wipe out the whole GTVA with a single cruiser-sized vessel and not break a sweat.

[blowfish]

It seems that the Shivans stopped advancing their technology at some point.

[AlphaOne]

Gooing by the same LOGIC AND COMMON SENCE (since you like this common sence so much but really lack much of it) if i were to design a ship that is half the size of a corvette but has more firepower then 2 Collies pu toghether such a ship would not be unbalanced and ridiculous bu rather if by ani chance it happens to win agains several destroyers at once it a mere technical issue of how the mission was designed correct?

       Actually going by common sense a race as old as the Shivans should be able to wipe out the whole GTVA with a single cruiser-sized vessel and not break a sweat.

That is a big negative there sir. I cant remeber where i read this but there aws such a debate a long time ago. And it is a proven fact that a race that reaches its development point has nowhere to go but down. Sure there will be some tech advancements but such tech's would be very far appart from one another and even less impresive.

The correct answear would of been that such an old race as the shivans should of become extinct or blow themselfs away by now and not be a threat to the GTVA.

[Akalabeth Angel]

That is a big negative there sir. I cant remeber where i read this but there aws such a debate a long time ago. And it is a proven fact that a race that reaches its development point has nowhere to go but down. Sure there will be some tech advancements but such tech's would be very far appart from one another and even less impresive.

       Proven by what? You're talking about theories, not facts.
       Humanity has advanced how far in the last century? That's the only fact we have.

[blowfish]

A race that old should have evolved to make our headz explode with their minds (well, probably not)

sorry for the spam

[IceFire]

Oh yeah sure so here in the red corner we have a 50 kg midget for the title of heavy weight champion at sumo. In the Blue corner we have a 180kg world heavy wight champion sumowrestler .

After just 1 minyte ladies and gentleman the midget managed to lift the 180kg plater to a height of over 2 metters and then ram him to the floor thus becoming heavy weight champion of the world.

Its ridiculous. A lilth can take donw  a FRAKING DESTROYER . the Lilith is a CRUISER .

Cruisers shivan or not should not be able to take down with realative ease a fracking DESTROYER .

Thats is like sayng that the Collie can take out by its own a shivan jugg with just 2 beam cannons before the Sathani has enough time to inflict even 25% dammage.

the Lilith is realy a gameplay unbalacing ship. Wanna equal the odds? Oki then give the Aeoulus Mjolnir beam cannons at least one of them. Sure it might still get lown away but at least this way it will do some dammage. Hell with just a tini bit of luck it could actualy win if by any chance it hits the front of the ship and takes out the shivan LRed. Ive seen that happen on acasions on some campaigns altough not too often and never 2 times in a row or at the same time interval. (what gives? )

Martial arts training suggests that weight can be used against ones opponent.  All I see is a narrow analogy that suggests bigger (or heavier) is always going to win out.

The Lilith shows up a couple of times in the FS2 campaign and doesn't unbalance the missions at all.  It does make them challenging at key moments that makes the player decide the outcome of the battle...which is of course what Volition's mission designers were going for in those particular moments.

Again...Shivan technology is such that they can apparently (going canonically of course) pack a fair bit of power into the size of a cruiser.  There isn't anything that suggests otherwise.  An Aeolus not being able to return the favour doesn't mean anything at all.  And thank you for bringing up the Mjolnir weapons platforms as they are similar in size to a cruiser and carry a pretty big weapon of their own...obviously all of their power is being channeled for the beam rather than any other weapons, life support, serious propulsion and so forth like a cruiser would.  So that gives us another baseline that a relatively small ship/emplacement in FreeSpace CAN carry around that kind of firepower....even at a lower technological level.

[AlphaOne]

i give up as soon as i go by his standards and actualy agree to a tiny bit with him he smashes my head in with "its just theory" The god damn realitavy factor regarding light speed has yet to be proven you ..............garhhhh YOU ! Noone has ever traveled at lightspeed  in ordet to prove the whole time dilation effect as far as i know. subspace is not even theory. Fraking 6 km long ships dont exist and wont exist in just 200 years since it would take us 200 tears to buidl the fracking infrastructure for such a ship before we even begin contruction. Man you just dont get it.


Oh and i was right about the whole shivans should be dead stuff. Its a real life theory as stated by someone.

[Akalabeth Angel]

not even theory. Fraking 6 km long ships dont exist and wont exist in just 200 years since it would take us 200 tears to buidl the fracking infrastructure for such a ship before we even begin contruction. Man you just dont get it.

Oh and i was right about the whole shivans should be dead stuff. Its a real life theory as stated by someone.

      I don't get what? That there's a difference between fact and theory? You tell me it's fact, I tell you it's theory. Then you agree that a bunch of other stuff is just theoretical (even if it's accepted theory) so what's the problem?
      And why should the Shivans be dead? Sure I'm sure people have theories, everyone has theories . . . but there's no "Fact" involved in it all. People can only theorize from a human perspective, not an alien one. Who knows how "real life aliens" (tm) even behave. Is everyone as self-destructive as we are? Maybe, but it's just a theory. And even if we are so self-destructive, we're still kicking today. Nuclear bombs and all.
      Just because it's a fact that someone has a theory doesn't mean their theory is fact because in the end the fact is, it's just a theory.

[Excalibur]

Liliths behave like Cains when you have 3 wings of Erinyes fighters all attacking it.

C + 3 + 1 ! = Nice ship rocks with 100+ hornets mixing with all its power = nice explosion.

Perhaps is over powered, but another thing to think about - the Shivans fit their beam cannons (if they are in fact cannons) into some tiny sharp point not very wide at all - why can't they have this on a cruiser? Unlike the Terrans - must be the size of a building...

Also, the Leviathan seems pretty underpowered in the fact that it must have 5* the engine area as compared to the Cain, Lilith or even the Molloch, but only manages 10 m/s - 36 km/h - a human can run that fast.