Author Topic: A very good metaphor  (Read 19939 times)

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A very good metaphor
Hey, I know quite a few members on here don't agree with what I believe in, and hear me when I say I don't mean to troll on here.  But I recently came across this, and it's probably the best metaphor for what I believe that I've ever read.  If you've got a moment, I just wanna ask that you read and think about it.



 There was a certain Professor of Religion named Dr. Christianson, a studious man who taught at a small college in the western United States.

Dr. Christianson taught the required survey course in Christianity at this particular institution. Every student was required to take this course his freshman year, regardless of his or her major.

Although Dr. Christianson tried hard to communicate the essence of the gospel in his class, he found that most of his students looked upon the course as nothing but required drudgery.  Despite his best efforts, most students refused to take Christianity seriously.

This year, Dr. Christianson had a special student named Steve. Steve was only a freshman, but was studying with the intent of going on to seminary for the ministry. Steve was popular, he was well liked, and he was an imposing physical specimen. He was now the starting center on the school football team, and was the best student in the professor's class.

One day, Dr. Christianson asked Steve to stay after class so he could talk with him. 'How many push-ups can you do?'
Steve said, 'I do about 200 every night.'  '200?  That's pretty good, Steve, ' Dr. Christianson said. 'Do you think you could do 300?'  Steve replied, 'I don't know.... I've never done 300 at a time.' 'Do you think you could?' again asked Dr. Christianson.  'Well, I can try,' said Steve.
'Can you do 300 in sets of 10? I have a class project in mind and I need you to do about 300 push-ups in sets of ten for this to work.  Can you do it? I need you to tell me you can do it,' said the professor.  Steve said, 'Well... I think I can...yeah, I can do it.'  Dr. Christianson said, 'Good! I need you to do this on Friday. Let me explain what I have in mind...'

Friday came and Steve got to class early and sat in the front of the room. When class started, the professor pulled out a big box of donuts. No, these weren't the normal kinds of donuts, they were the extra fancy BIG kind, with cream centers and frosting swirls. Everyone was pretty excited it was Friday, the last class of the day, and they were going to get an early start on the weekend with a party in Dr. Christianson's class.

Dr. Christianson went to the first girl in the first row and asked, 'Cynthia, do you want to have one of these donuts?'
Cynthia said, 'Yes.'  Dr. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, 'Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that Cynthia can have a donut?'

'Sure!' Steve jumped down from his desk to do a quick ten. Then Steve again sat in his desk. Dr. Christianson put a donut on Cynthia's desk.

Dr. Christianson then went to Joe, the next person, and asked, 'Joe, do you want a donut?'  Joe said, 'Yes.' Dr. Christianson asked, 'Steve would you do ten push-ups so Joe can have a donut?'  Steve did ten push-ups, Joe got a donut. And so it went, down the first aisle, Steve did ten push-ups for every person before they got their donut.

Walking down the second aisle, Dr. Christianson came to Scott.  Scott was on the basketball team, and in as good condition as Steve.  He was very popular and never lacking for female companionship.  When the professor asked, 'Scott do you want a donut?'  Scott's reply was, 'Well, can I do my own push-ups?'  Dr. Christianson said, 'No, Steve has to do them.'  Then Scott said, 'Well, I don't want one then.'

Dr. Christianson shrugged and then turned to Steve and asked, 'Steve,  would you do ten push-ups so Scott can have a donut he doesn't want?'  With perfect obedience Steve started to do ten push-ups.  Scott said, 'HEY! I said I didn't want one!'  Dr. Christianson said, 'Look!, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and these are my donuts. Just leave it on the desk if you don't want it.' And he put a donut on Scott's desk.

Now by this time, Steve had begun to slow down a little. He just stayed on the floor between sets because it took too much effort to be getting up and down. You could start to see a little perspiration coming out around his brow.

Dr. Christianson started down the third row. Now the students were beginning to get a little angry.  Dr. Christianson asked Jenny, 'Jenny, do you want a donut?'  Sternly, Jenny said, 'No.'  Then Dr. Christianson asked Steve, 'Steve, would you do ten more push-ups so Jenny can have a donut that she doesn't want?'  Steve did ten....Jenny got a donut.

By now, a growing sense of uneasiness filled the room. The students were beginning to say, 'No!' and there were all these uneaten donuts on the desks.

Steve also had to really put forth a lot of extra effort to get these push-ups done for each donut. There began to be a small pool of sweat on the floor beneath his face, his arms and brow were beginning to get red because of the physical effort involved.

Dr. Christianson asked Robert, who was the most vocal unbeliever in the class, to watch Steve do each push up to make sure he did the full ten push-ups in a set because he couldn't bear to watch all of Steve's work for all of those uneaten donuts.  He sent Robert over to where Steve was so Robert could count the set and watch Steve closely.

Dr. Christianson started down the fourth row. During his class, however, some students from other classes had wandered in and sat down on the steps along the radiators that ran down the sides of the room.  When the professor realized this, he did a quick count and saw that now there were 34 students in the room. He started to worry if Steve would be able to make it.

Dr. Christianson went on to the next person and the next and the next.  Near the end of that row, Steve was really having a rough time.  He was taking a lot more time to complete each set.

Steve asked Dr. Christianson, 'Do I have to make my nose touch on each one?'  Dr. Christianson thought for a moment, 'Well, they're your pushups.  You are in charge now. You can do them any way that you want.'  And Dr. Christianson went on.

A few moments later, Jason, a recent transfer student, came to the room and was about to come in when all the students yelled in one voice, 'NO! Don't come in! Stay out!'  Jason didn't know what was going on.  Steve picked up his head and said, 'No, let him come.'  Professor Christianson said, 'You realize that if Jason comes in you will have to do ten push-ups for him?'  Steve said, 'Yes, let him come in. Give him a donut.'

Dr. Christianson said, 'Okay, Steve, I'll let you get Jason's out of the way right now. Jason, do you want a donut?'
Jason, new to the room, hardly knew what was going on. 'Yes,' he said, 'give me a donut.'  'Steve, will you do ten push-ups so that Jason can have a donut?'  Steve did ten push-ups very slowly and with great effort. Jason, bewildered, was handed a donut and sat down.

Dr. Christianson finished the fourth row, and then started on those visitors seated by the heaters. Steve's arms were now shaking with each push-up in a struggle to lift himself against the force of gravity.  By this time sweat was profusely dropping off of his face, there was no sound except his heavy breathing; there was not a dry eye in the room.

The very last two students in the room were two young women, both cheerleaders, and very popular.  Dr. Christianson went to Linda, the second to last, and asked, 'Linda, do you want a donut?'  Linda said, very sadly, 'No, thank you.'
Professor Christianson quietly asked, 'Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that Linda can have a donut she doesn't want?'  Grunting from the effort, Steve did ten very slow push-ups for Linda.

Then Dr. Christianson turned to the last girl, Susan. 'Susan, do you want a donut?'  Susan, with tears flowing down her face, began to cry. 'Dr. Christianson, why can't I help him?'  Dr. Christianson, with tears of his own, said, 'No, Steve has to do it alone; I have given him this task and he is in charge of seeing that everyone has an opportunity for a donut whether they want it or not.  When I decided to have a party this last day of class, I looked at my grade book. Steve here is the only student with a perfect grade.  Everyone else has failed a test, skipped class, or offered me inferior work.  Steve told me that in football practice, when a player messes up he must do push-ups. I told Steve that none of you could come to my party unless he paid the price by doing your push ups. He and I made a deal for your sakes.' 'Steve, would you do ten push-ups so Susan can have a donut?'

As Steve very slowly finished his last push-up, with the understanding that he had accomplished all that was required of him, having done 350 push-ups, his arms buckled beneath him and he fell to the floor.

Dr. Christianson turned to the room and said, 'And so it was, that our Savior, Jesus Christ, on the cross, plead to the Father, 'Into thy hands I commend my spirit.' With the understanding that He had done everything that was required of Him, He yielded up His life.  And like some of those in this room, many of us leave the gift on the desk, uneaten.'

Two students helped Steve up off the floor and to a seat, physically exhausted, but wearing a thin smile.  'Well done, good and faithful servant,' said the professor, adding, 'Not all sermons are preached in words.'

Turning to his class, the professor said, 'My wish is that you might understand and fully comprehend all the riches of grace and mercy that have been given to you through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He spared not His only Begotten Son, but gave Him up for us all, for the whole Church, now and forever. Whether or not we choose to accept His gift to us, the price has been paid.'

Wouldn't you be foolish and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?

Thank you for your time in reading this post.  God Bless.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: A very good metaphor
Been there, done that...

P.S.
I'm actually frightened I remembered a post from that long ago... by Liberator no less.
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Zoltan

  • 26
Re: A very good metaphor
I think that it is well written, aside from a few minor details. Despite this, I think that it fails miserably in attempting to convey its intended message. The problem (in my eyes at any rate) is that many people, myself included, do not like to be indentured to anyone or anything regardless of the circumstance. The message here is that you should feel guilty if you are not grateful for what Christ did, and that sounds merely like a recruitment tool to me. While I don't have any problem with Christians (or people of any other religion), I cannot stand anyone or anything that attempts to gain control of people through the use of unwarranted guilt. Say that the Bible is factual, and I say "I didn't ask for the sacrifice," a Christian would reply "it was given without your asking, you should be grateful". I think that this is a problem that many people have with religion (though I could be wrong); the correct reponse should be "you are entitled to your own beliefs," but instead they continue to preach, and if there is anything that I have found to be true in life, it is that people do not like to be preached to about things that they neither believe in, nor intend to believe in. That's my two cents on the matter, I don't intend to start an argument, or any dispute, but feel free to comment (or not comment) as you please...


P.S.
I also know how people would respond in a real life situation that is similar to this, and I highly doubt that it was what the author had in mind at the piece's conclusion.
"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five." - Groucho Marx

 

Offline Davros

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Re: A very good metaphor

Wouldn't you be foolish and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?



by dying what did jesus actully give us ?

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: A very good metaphor
Hey, I know quite a few members on here don't agree with what I believe in, and hear me when I say I don't mean to troll on here.  But I recently came across this, and it's probably the best metaphor for what I believe that I've ever read.  If you've got a moment, I just wanna ask that you read and think about it.



 There was a certain Professor of Religion named Dr. Christianson, a studious man who taught at a small college in the western United States.

Dr. Christianson taught the required survey course in Christianity at this particular institution. Every student was required to take this course his freshman year, regardless of his or her major.

Although Dr. Christianson tried hard to communicate the essence of the gospel in his class, he found that most of his students looked upon the course as nothing but required drudgery.  Despite his best efforts, most students refused to take Christianity seriously.

This year, Dr. Christianson had a special student named Steve. Steve was only a freshman, but was studying with the intent of going on to seminary for the ministry. Steve was popular, he was well liked, and he was an imposing physical specimen. He was now the starting center on the school football team, and was the best student in the professor's class.

One day, Dr. Christianson asked Steve to stay after class so he could talk with him. 'How many push-ups can you do?'
Steve said, 'I do about 200 every night.'  '200?  That's pretty good, Steve, ' Dr. Christianson said. 'Do you think you could do 300?'  Steve replied, 'I don't know.... I've never done 300 at a time.' 'Do you think you could?' again asked Dr. Christianson.  'Well, I can try,' said Steve.
'Can you do 300 in sets of 10? I have a class project in mind and I need you to do about 300 push-ups in sets of ten for this to work.  Can you do it? I need you to tell me you can do it,' said the professor.  Steve said, 'Well... I think I can...yeah, I can do it.'  Dr. Christianson said, 'Good! I need you to do this on Friday. Let me explain what I have in mind...'

Friday came and Steve got to class early and sat in the front of the room. When class started, the professor pulled out a big box of donuts. No, these weren't the normal kinds of donuts, they were the extra fancy BIG kind, with cream centers and frosting swirls. Everyone was pretty excited it was Friday, the last class of the day, and they were going to get an early start on the weekend with a party in Dr. Christianson's class.

Dr. Christianson went to the first girl in the first row and asked, 'Cynthia, do you want to have one of these donuts?'
Cynthia said, 'Yes.'  Dr. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, 'Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that Cynthia can have a donut?'

'Sure!' Steve jumped down from his desk to do a quick ten. Then Steve again sat in his desk. Dr. Christianson put a donut on Cynthia's desk.

Dr. Christianson then went to Joe, the next person, and asked, 'Joe, do you want a donut?'  Joe said, 'Yes.' Dr. Christianson asked, 'Steve would you do ten push-ups so Joe can have a donut?'  Steve did ten push-ups, Joe got a donut. And so it went, down the first aisle, Steve did ten push-ups for every person before they got their donut.

Walking down the second aisle, Dr. Christianson came to Scott.  Scott was on the basketball team, and in as good condition as Steve.  He was very popular and never lacking for female companionship.  When the professor asked, 'Scott do you want a donut?'  Scott's reply was, 'Well, can I do my own push-ups?'  Dr. Christianson said, 'No, Steve has to do them.'  Then Scott said, 'Well, I don't want one then.'

Dr. Christianson shrugged and then turned to Steve and asked, 'Steve,  would you do ten push-ups so Scott can have a donut he doesn't want?'  With perfect obedience Steve started to do ten push-ups.  Scott said, 'HEY! I said I didn't want one!'  Dr. Christianson said, 'Look!, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and these are my donuts. Just leave it on the desk if you don't want it.' And he put a donut on Scott's desk.

Now by this time, Steve had begun to slow down a little. He just stayed on the floor between sets because it took too much effort to be getting up and down. You could start to see a little perspiration coming out around his brow.

Dr. Christianson started down the third row. Now the students were beginning to get a little angry.  Dr. Christianson asked Jenny, 'Jenny, do you want a donut?'  Sternly, Jenny said, 'No.'  Then Dr. Christianson asked Steve, 'Steve, would you do ten more push-ups so Jenny can have a donut that she doesn't want?'  Steve did ten....Jenny got a donut.

By now, a growing sense of uneasiness filled the room. The students were beginning to say, 'No!' and there were all these uneaten donuts on the desks.

Steve also had to really put forth a lot of extra effort to get these push-ups done for each donut. There began to be a small pool of sweat on the floor beneath his face, his arms and brow were beginning to get red because of the physical effort involved.

Dr. Christianson asked Robert, who was the most vocal unbeliever in the class, to watch Steve do each push up to make sure he did the full ten push-ups in a set because he couldn't bear to watch all of Steve's work for all of those uneaten donuts.  He sent Robert over to where Steve was so Robert could count the set and watch Steve closely.

Dr. Christianson started down the fourth row. During his class, however, some students from other classes had wandered in and sat down on the steps along the radiators that ran down the sides of the room.  When the professor realized this, he did a quick count and saw that now there were 34 students in the room. He started to worry if Steve would be able to make it.

Dr. Christianson went on to the next person and the next and the next.  Near the end of that row, Steve was really having a rough time.  He was taking a lot more time to complete each set.

Steve asked Dr. Christianson, 'Do I have to make my nose touch on each one?'  Dr. Christianson thought for a moment, 'Well, they're your pushups.  You are in charge now. You can do them any way that you want.'  And Dr. Christianson went on.

A few moments later, Jason, a recent transfer student, came to the room and was about to come in when all the students yelled in one voice, 'NO! Don't come in! Stay out!'  Jason didn't know what was going on.  Steve picked up his head and said, 'No, let him come.'  Professor Christianson said, 'You realize that if Jason comes in you will have to do ten push-ups for him?'  Steve said, 'Yes, let him come in. Give him a donut.'

Dr. Christianson said, 'Okay, Steve, I'll let you get Jason's out of the way right now. Jason, do you want a donut?'
Jason, new to the room, hardly knew what was going on. 'Yes,' he said, 'give me a donut.'  'Steve, will you do ten push-ups so that Jason can have a donut?'  Steve did ten push-ups very slowly and with great effort. Jason, bewildered, was handed a donut and sat down.

Dr. Christianson finished the fourth row, and then started on those visitors seated by the heaters. Steve's arms were now shaking with each push-up in a struggle to lift himself against the force of gravity.  By this time sweat was profusely dropping off of his face, there was no sound except his heavy breathing; there was not a dry eye in the room.

The very last two students in the room were two young women, both cheerleaders, and very popular.  Dr. Christianson went to Linda, the second to last, and asked, 'Linda, do you want a donut?'  Linda said, very sadly, 'No, thank you.'
Professor Christianson quietly asked, 'Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that Linda can have a donut she doesn't want?'  Grunting from the effort, Steve did ten very slow push-ups for Linda.

Then Dr. Christianson turned to the last girl, Susan. 'Susan, do you want a donut?'  Susan, with tears flowing down her face, began to cry. 'Dr. Christianson, why can't I help him?'  Dr. Christianson, with tears of his own, said, 'No, Steve has to do it alone; I have given him this task and he is in charge of seeing that everyone has an opportunity for a donut whether they want it or not.  When I decided to have a party this last day of class, I looked at my grade book. Steve here is the only student with a perfect grade.  Everyone else has failed a test, skipped class, or offered me inferior work.  Steve told me that in football practice, when a player messes up he must do push-ups. I told Steve that none of you could come to my party unless he paid the price by doing your push ups. He and I made a deal for your sakes.' 'Steve, would you do ten push-ups so Susan can have a donut?'

As Steve very slowly finished his last push-up, with the understanding that he had accomplished all that was required of him, having done 350 push-ups, his arms buckled beneath him and he fell to the floor.

Dr. Christianson turned to the room and said, 'And so it was, that our Savior, Jesus Christ, on the cross, plead to the Father, 'Into thy hands I commend my spirit.' With the understanding that He had done everything that was required of Him, He yielded up His life.  And like some of those in this room, many of us leave the gift on the desk, uneaten.'

Two students helped Steve up off the floor and to a seat, physically exhausted, but wearing a thin smile.  'Well done, good and faithful servant,' said the professor, adding, 'Not all sermons are preached in words.'

Turning to his class, the professor said, 'My wish is that you might understand and fully comprehend all the riches of grace and mercy that have been given to you through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He spared not His only Begotten Son, but gave Him up for us all, for the whole Church, now and forever. Whether or not we choose to accept His gift to us, the price has been paid.'

Wouldn't you be foolish and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?

Thank you for your time in reading this post.  God Bless.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 05:11:50 am by BlackDove »

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: A very good metaphor
Actually it seemed to me that the lesson was more like "don't blindly follow the leader, you will pay for it".

Quote
The message here is that you should feel guilty if you are not grateful for what Christ did, and that sounds merely like a recruitment tool to me.

Yeah, pretty much. It's really all about marketing.

Quote
but instead they continue to preach

Hallowed are the Ori


"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: A very good metaphor

Wouldn't you be foolish and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?



by dying what did jesus actully give us ?

nothing, just an example for some people to live by

oh, and the world's biggest cult of self-retardation
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: A very good metaphor
GRAB YE TORCH AND PITCHFORKS TO SMITE TEH HEATHEN!111111111111one

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: A very good metaphor
Regardless what Jesus' original message might or might not have been, for the majority of current christian sects* the metaphor would have been more accurate like this:

You'll all get to have a wonderful time with me in the donut bar if and when you pass this course, if you let Steve do ten push-ups for you.


...like in all bait and switch schemes/cults, the prize for obedience and Right Kind of Thinking/Living is right by the corner (in case of Christianity, after death, which is very hande because no one usually comes back to complain...) so to accurately describe Christianity as a metaphor, the students should have been required something for the prize as well, because christianity sure does... theoretically anyway. For the defense of the Christian overlords it must be said though that they relatively rarely resort to trying to control members who change their way of thinking and want to leave the church. Those days are pretty much in the past for Christianity.


*majority of christian sects has conditions for salvation. Either you need to not do some things (sinners don't get to heaven -model - although the code is more like guidelines anyway for most sects, everythign is more or less negotiable especially if you repent...), do something specific (catholic culture of sacraments), or think something specific (Lutheran mode where you basically just need to believe).

Is there even a sect that believes that no matter what your religious opinions and education and deeds in life, you would be offered a donut after death? I seem to remember Jesus himself implying (or made to imply by the editors of the gospels) that believing in him - that he died for your sins and was/is the son of God thy lord and master - was required for fastpass to heaven, or donut bar. Some sects have additional criteria, to different extent, but I don't think there's any official sect of christianity that requires nothing of no one for them to be offered eternal afterlife, even if you never believed in gods of any kind, or happened to have a wrong religious uprising. If there is, please point me to it.

There's also the very serious question of whether or not anyone in their right mind would want to spend an eternity of quality time with a conceited malevolent bastard (or incredibly incompetent fool) that God of christianity most apparently is - and this opinion is based both on how things are in reality, and especially the scriptures of the Old Testament... Hell, most people wouldn't want to even spend an afternoon with their religions course professor in a donut bar!

...wow, now that I look at this, I realize this might be taken as pretty inflammatory and provocative. That was not originally my intention, so please don't take it as such. Just making the metaphor describe what it was supposed to be a bit better... :nervous:
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 08:41:45 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: A very good metaphor
It's a great metaphor. Every atheist reading it is thinking "That Dr. Christianson's a complete wanker to put Steve through that when he could have just given out the donuts."
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline General Battuta

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It's a great metaphor. Every atheist reading it is thinking "That Dr. Christianson's a complete wanker to put Steve through that when he could have just given out the donuts."

Seconded!

I understood this principle of Christianity before even reading the metaphor. I think the metaphor fails to address most of the real problems people have with Christianity, which have nothing to do with Christ's sacrifice and a lot to do with the belief that there is no God -- or at least no judgmental God in the Christian sense.

Also, it doesn't seem to indicate to me why I should choose Jesus Christ over, say, Mohammed or Buddha, who have also done interesting and generous things for mankind.

That said, I've got no problem with your faith so long as it doesn't affect the government of my state or my personal situation.

 

Offline Rian

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Well, I’d say that the metaphor is ineffective because it trivializes the idea of the sacrifice. I think all of us can understand what it means to die for someone else, and comparing it to an afternoon’s discomfort is not going to make us understand it any better or appreciate it any more (or convince those of us who happen to be atheists.)

Quite the opposite, really. The claim is that God offers eternal life – are you saying that’s comparable to a donut? Seems like someone who does believe would be insulted by the comparison, and someone who doesn’t would say that a donut is a much more tangible reward than an afterlife that we won’t know exists until we get there.

Or perhaps that’s the point, and this was written as satire.

  

Offline Flipside

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It's a wonderful example of how religion can be used to divert punishment to the innocent whilst the cruel pretend they are being altruistic.

 

Offline castor

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-lots of text
-emotionally manipulative
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Offline Stealth

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nicely done G0atmaster!

you should have known that it wouldn't be welcomed much in this forum :-/

 

Offline Flipside

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I'm afraid you are certainly right about that.

Quote
Two students helped Steve up off the floor and to a seat, physically exhausted, but wearing a thin smile.  'Well done, good and faithful servant,'

Yesss... A good servant you have been, there may be cake later if you continue to be a good servant, then of course, there may not be.

 

Offline Stealth

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.... was that a (weak) Portal reference? :wtf:

 

Offline TrashMan

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nicely done G0atmaster!

you should have known that it wouldn't be welcomed much in this forum :-/

Indeed...most of the internets is the domain of vocal atheists and religion haters in general. (if anyone is insulted by this it's because you recongnize yourself. If not then good for you)

Not that that particular piece of writing was something I would consider posting, especially here. While interesting it really was a unnecessary exhibition.
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Offline karajorma

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Indeed...most of the internets is the domain of vocal atheists and religion haters in general.

Only cause the vocal religious people are in general too dumb to figure it out. :p
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Flipside

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.... was that a (weak) Portal reference? :wtf:

Not really, though the cake was vaguely Portal-esque in origin.

It is, for me, the very personification of the reason I walked away from religion, whether intentionally or not, it just says to me that the guy in charge needs to be certain that his followers are willing to work themselves to collapse to prove him right without question or even rational thought.

It's not a story about Jesus' suffering, it's a story about 'rites of passage', it's a tribal story to define to children that there will be a reward if they are willing to suffer for their leaders' sake, be it doughnut, cake or heaven.

I understand the imagery it's trying to portray, certainly, but the story used to portray it displays some of the worst aspects of Religious Dogma, that to suffer pain to prove a point is somehow noble or grand. It isn't it's stupid and pointless, especially when there is no cause to do so.