[jdjtcagle]

Christianity deals in absolutes

Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'm sorry, Anakin jdjtcagle.

Mwahahaha... 

[jdjtcagle]

Guys lets take a deep breath...

Everybody needs to know that religion is bad and that God is good.  I'm a part of a church (group of people of a related faith) that dedicates it's time to find out what the bible says using the historical / grammatical principals of hermeneutics.  I'm very very comfortable that I actually do know the truth and it does make me happy to have such an assurance, although many people may not agree with me. 

Now that I told you what I stand for let me say this...

There have been countless horrible things done in the "name" of religion, especially Christianity.  God's plan certainly wasn't this.  It was however to be set up on this world.  That is the spiritual kingdom that those who recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit (the bible way, not by saying the magic words).  This kingdom is a relationship with God.  One that if you (truly) partake of your entire lifestyle "does" change.  The way you dress, talk, walk, and live all changes. Whether or not I'm fooling myself into being happy I whole heartedly don't believe, but I'm happy regardless. 

The meaning of this stressful life is to be happy and stop bring others down (yes, even "non-christians")
Treat them as equals because they are... How can somebody that believes they have recieved grace from God say to themselves they are better than anyone else?  I hardly doubt that's truly the right attitude.

Religion is a ceremony, church today is entertainment / "fast food" religion.  God - never changes and neither does His word.

Just be happy! = to everybody.
If you believe in God, believe with all your heart and do strive to be exactly what the bible says you should be.  NOTHING less.
If your not living by the bible then your "Christian lifstyle" is a lie... 

That's my take on it and for those who think of me naive about life, I'm sorry that there is know way I could convince you otherwise.

[TrashMan]

Maybe you should take the time to write a proper response rather than going straight to the funny pictures. You know, actually try to participate in an adult discussion rather than trying to reduce it to the juvenile level you're trying to.

I would, but that why bother?
That effort would be lost on you anyway, since apparently you're only interested in shouting to the world how horrible and stupid religious people are (Christians in particular) and how religion is the great evil that opresses.

It's noteworthy to fight for a good cause, but then again such branding have been more than common in history. Communists and capitalists and how they portrayed eachother? Each side sure that the other is the bad guy that needs to be defeated. From all the religious talk on various forums I get that vibe from most atheists - they do really believe that organized religion is evil. Well, kudos to them..whatever rocks their boat. Viva la revolucion and all that jazz.

[achtung]

Maybe you should take the time to write a proper response rather than going straight to the funny pictures. You know, actually try to participate in an adult discussion rather than trying to reduce it to the juvenile level you're trying to.

I would, but that why bother?
That effort would be lost on you anyway, since apparently you're only interested in shouting to the world how horrible and stupid religious people are (Christians in particular) and how religion is the great evil that opresses.

It's noteworthy to fight for a good cause, but then again such branding have been more than common in history. Communists and capitalists and how they portrayed eachother? Each side sure that the other is the bad guy that needs to be defeated. From all the religious talk on various forums I get that vibe from most atheists - they do really believe that organized religion is evil. Well, kudos to them..whatever rocks their boat. Viva la revolucion and all that jazz.

Since when did mainstream Christianity, and most other popular beliefs, not brand Atheism as "evil?"    You don't have much of a high horse to sit on with that argument.  I would dare say the oppression of Atheists by most organized religions has probably served to change their view of these religions to one of disgust and hate more than their non-belief ever could

[TrashMan]

Since when did mainstream Christianity, and most other popular beliefs, not brand Atheism as "evil?"    You don't have much of a high horse to sit on with that argument.  I would dare say the oppression of Atheists by most organized religions has probably served to change their view of these religions to one of disgust and hate more than their non-belief ever could

Since when is atheism evil? I don't recall ever hearing that from any of the priests I know or the pope, nor do I believe it.

And *I* would dare say that the misguided crusade of many a atheist has probably served to change the view of many religious people about atheism to one of disgust and hate.

[achtung]

Since when did mainstream Christianity, and most other popular beliefs, not brand Atheism as "evil?"    You don't have much of a high horse to sit on with that argument.  I would dare say the oppression of Atheists by most organized religions has probably served to change their view of these religions to one of disgust and hate more than their non-belief ever could

Since when is atheism evil? I don't recall ever hearing that from any of the priests I know or the pope, nor do I believe it.

And *I* would dare say that the misguided crusade of many a atheist has probably served to change the view of many religious people about atheism to one of disgust and hate.

Catholics aren't the only Christians you know. 

How would the fact that now, and throughout history, admitted Atheists are called devils, murdered, and generally persecuted not leave an Atheist to feel a bit of distaste for religion?  Aside from Atheism when it's attached to political agendas such as Communism, I rarely hear of Atheists seriously calling for the murder, torture, or suppression of religious believers.

Admittedly extremism is bad for both, and usually extremists compose only a small portion of a group, but I believe you'll find many more extremist religious folks than extremist Atheists.

I'll leave you with this note, calling someone's beliefs silly and threatening eternal damnation or murder for saying your beliefs are silly are two very different things.

[Scuddie]

If you believe in the teachings of Christ, believe with all your heart and do strive to be exactly what Christ says you should be.  NOTHING less.
If your not living by the life of Christ then your "Christian lifstyle" is a lie... 

Since you, like most Christians, are confused about your religion, I have fixed your set of thought for the sake of your own salvation.

EDIT:  Directed at everybody, not just  to jdjt.

[WMCoolmon]

Since when did mainstream Christianity, and most other popular beliefs, not brand Atheism as "evil?"    You don't have much of a high horse to sit on with that argument.  I would dare say the oppression of Atheists by most organized religions has probably served to change their view of these religions to one of disgust and hate more than their non-belief ever could

Since when is atheism evil? I don't recall ever hearing that from any of the priests I know or the pope, nor do I believe it.

And *I* would dare say that the misguided crusade of many a atheist has probably served to change the view of many religious people about atheism to one of disgust and hate.

Ah, Trashman, Trashman...

Jumping into a thread with ridiculous generalizations and exaggerations, and then getting self-righteously nitpickety when somebody else responds along the same lines. It's almost like a well-rehearsed method of bait-and-switch.

Speaking of which, the whole guilt trip..I find the anegdote rather interesting. Guilt has always been a tool trought human history. Still is. In fact, everyone is using it.
When you say to a religious person that he's a mindelss follower and doesn't think, aren't you actually trying to make him feel guilty about that? When a person kills or brakes a law and you scorn him for that, what's that other than imposing a feeling of guilt?

Why do you assume that there is any reason to be ashamed of what you are? If you find that being a mindless follower is what you want to do because you hate to make decisions, then go ahead. Sometimes people like that are useful, sometimes there are situations when the best thing you can possibly do is shut up and just go with it.

I would argue that any guilt felt with regards to the justice system is meant to be deserved. A conscience is not a bad thing, nor is imposing a conscience so that society can function, but a conscience must be rooted in something and must be fair and just in order to function properly.

The examples you give here are not the same thing as the situation presented in the original story. On the surface, yes, they may involve questions of guilt, but they are a far cry from invoking undeserved guilt in order to force a certain mode of thinking. I would argue that the Professor's treatment of the students impaired critical thinking, and was wholly unnecessary and counterproductive for the process of learning.

If I were to challenge one of those students on their beliefs, what would they have actually gained out of the exercise? "I worship God, because he forced me into an obligation to accept his gift by causing someone else suffering that they didn't deserve". Maybe they could add a little icing to that description, but that's really the main thrust of what the Professor was demonstrating.

[WMCoolmon]

That's my take on it and for those who think of me naive about life, I'm sorry that there is know way I could convince you otherwise.

My take on 'religion', in general, is that it's not inherently bad but it is used as an excuse by people to do things which would otherwise be clearly wrong. It doesn't have to be religion for this to happen, either - you might see the same thing happen with a guy or a group of guys trying to impress some girl. Or somebody slapping around somebody else because they don't like them, even though that person has never actually done anything to hurt anyone.

Of course just to complicate things, there are some moral systems and justifications where you can easily justify those things as being the right things to do. Granted, you might get caught up in ends-justify-means reasoning and most people might not agree with you, but anyway...

Both the strength of and the problem with religion is that it links things to a higher meaning. You can't question God. You can question the interpretation of God, sure, but once you say that God meant something, you can't question that. And that can be a good thing - somebody might go through life being happy because they believe that God has a plan for them, and that might get them through rough spots in much better steed than somebody who doesn't have that faith.

But that can also lead to abuse, when somebody says that God is against this. Suddenly, whether something is immoral, whether it forces you to do injustice against your fellow man, doesn't really matter. With the mandate of God on your side, you can do pretty much whatever you want. The ends do justify the means, and no man or mortal can question what you are doing because God automatically supersedes everything material. If you are fighting for a truly righteous cause, then that is your strength. If your understanding is corrupted, the teachings that have been given to you have been perverted, or if you simply use that mandate as a rationalization rather than true purpose, it is a terrible thing and will lead to all sorts of senseless wrong.

And sometimes, religion is just insensitive to other people. Whether that is something simply added in by the human authors of holy works or by the diety that inspired them, it can lead to people going on a crusade against people for no other reason than simply because they believe that it is 'right', because their religion defines their morality and they never go any further than that.

I'm not exactly sure how I can make my point any further other than to say that I think that there is a difference in the type of people that become atheists, and the type of people that follow religion, in terms of how they go about things. Generally, people who follow religion end up getting accused of being sheepies, while atheists end up getting accused of being cold or negative. My suspicion is that atheists tend to value independent critical thinking over group harmony, while religion tends to be the other way around. Those kinds of subtleties are usually lost once a discussion gets heated enough.

It is interesting to note that there are Christian philosophers who attempted to formulate Christian morality, etc. without relying on the bible, though, so it's not like challenging religion is exclusive to atheists. The difference being that I've gotten the impression that religious philosophers start from the premise that religion is true and try to prove it, while atheist philosphers go the other way around, and start from the premises and try to formulate a conclusion.

However that is totally opinion and I've done very little checking on that last bit, but I figured it would be interesting to toss that into the discussion and see what people thought of it.

[Flipside]

I don't buy the 'other people do it, so why not us?' line, not from something that is supposed to be following a 'higher truth'. If its goals are much more noble than wannabe dictators, tyrants and manipulators, then so should its methods be.

All the church showed me by copying those who they considered unjust was that they were no better than them, and convinced me that they had lost their way a long time ago. Now they are all about influence and control, over everything they see, touch, hear or smell, if they personally don't like a movie, or a show or a book, then all must be denied, regardless of their own personal beliefs, the church doesn't care what you think, it only cares that you treat them as the only route to some post-death paradise, and to do that, you must do what they say, not what they do.

[Ford Prefect]

I'm not exactly sure how I can make my point any further other than to say that I think that there is a difference in the type of people that become atheists, and the type of people that follow religion, in terms of how they go about things.

I'm not sure about that. Admittedly, I speak only from personal experience, but I've come to see a lot of importance in the distinction between god as an ontological truth and god as a state of thought. As an atheist, I deny the former, but the latter is central to my life. I don't believe in god, but I believe very strongly that I know what it feels like to experience god, and this feeling became so important to me that it's become the center of my studies in musicology. I'm no less of an atheist now than I was as a Nietzsche-quoting adolescent, but I think there is a wealth of personal happiness and fulfillment to be found in embracing spirituality as a sort of extension of our aesthetic selves. In essence, I think the question of whether god exists is less important than the beauty in the idea of god. And since beauty is a personal experience, god is a personal experience as well, which is why I think god has absolutely nothing to do with morality. My feelings of awe in the face of existence are between me and the universe, and have nothing to do with the way I conduct myself in relation to others. Religious experiences can't make me a better or worse person, they can't help those less fortunate than I, and they can't protect me from bouts with existential despair. They are, like art or love, sources of pleasure unto themselves-- simply feelings (however ontologically "false" they may be) of the presence of what the Sufis often called "the Beloved."

[karajorma]

I would, but that why bother?

The other Christians on this topic have managed to conduct themselves as adults. It would probably be in their interests to not have you bringing the tone down with juvenile nonsense and borderline trolling. You choose of your own volition to enter an adult discussion. You're expected to act with the decorum the rest of us shown.

That effort would be lost on you anyway, since apparently you're only interested in shouting to the world how horrible and stupid religious people are (Christians in particular) and how religion is the great evil that opresses.

Gone straight to the argumentum ad hominem I see. Last refuge of someone unable to actually argue the point.

[jdjtcagle]

My take on 'religion', in general, is that it's not inherently bad but it is used as an excuse by people to do things which would otherwise be clearly wrong. It doesn't have to be religion for this to happen, either - you might see the same thing happen with a guy or a group of guys trying to impress some girl. Or somebody slapping around somebody else because they don't like them, even though that person has never actually done anything to hurt anyone.

Of course just to complicate things, there are some moral systems and justifications where you can easily justify those things as being the right things to do. Granted, you might get caught up in ends-justify-means reasoning and most people might not agree with you, but anyway...

Both the strength of and the problem with religion is that it links things to a higher meaning. You can't question God. You can question the interpretation of God, sure, but once you say that God meant something, you can't question that. And that can be a good thing - somebody might go through life being happy because they believe that God has a plan for them, and that might get them through rough spots in much better steed than somebody who doesn't have that faith.

I agree with what you had to say here - The question truly comes into play for people like me - "Do you think truth can be known?"

But that can also lead to abuse, when somebody says that God is against this. Suddenly, whether something is immoral, whether it forces you to do injustice against your fellow man, doesn't really matter. With the mandate of God on your side, you can do pretty much whatever you want. The ends do justify the means, and no man or mortal can question what you are doing because God automatically supersedes everything material. If you are fighting for a truly righteous cause, then that is your strength. If your understanding is corrupted, the teachings that have been given to you have been perverted, or if you simply use that mandate as a rationalization rather than true purpose, it is a terrible thing and will lead to all sorts of senseless wrong.

Again your completely right.

And sometimes, religion is just insensitive to other people. Whether that is something simply added in by the human authors of holy works or by the diety that inspired them, it can lead to people going on a crusade against people for no other reason than simply because they believe that it is 'right', because their religion defines their morality and they never go any further than that.

One thing I noticed about the scriptures is - They were meant to show us how to live, not for us to force other people how to live.  There is a difference.  People focus on the "evil" in the world - add the combination of evil in their heart you got a witch hunt.  God can obviously make such judgments because He is holy.  Jesus sat in the presence of "sinners" - We murder them.

I'm not exactly sure how I can make my point any further other than to say that I think that there is a difference in the type of people that become atheists, and the type of people that follow religion, in terms of how they go about things. Generally, people who follow religion end up getting accused of being sheepies, while atheists end up getting accused of being cold or negative. My suspicion is that atheists tend to value independent critical thinking over group harmony, while religion tends to be the other way around. Those kinds of subtleties are usually lost once a discussion gets heated enough.

While I don't see atheist to be cold - we base our reality on our experiences.  My honest beliefs on atheism is that when life comes our way, it's really hard to see a God - so naturally we look to nature or things we can see.  The word faith really shows its face in the discussion.

It is interesting to note that there are Christian philosophers who attempted to formulate Christian morality, etc. without relying on the bible, though, so it's not like challenging religion is exclusive to atheists. The difference being that I've gotten the impression that religious philosophers start from the premise that religion is true and try to prove it, while atheist philosphers go the other way around, and start from the premises and try to formulate a conclusion.

We all have biases and pretty much everything can be said about anybody and be true. I see your reasoning for Christian philosophers - I do not believe I do such a thing - There are philosophical reasons for not accepting atheism aside there is very little but I see that as a basis for reality.

I'm not exactly sure how I can make my point any further other than to say that I think that there is a difference in the type of people that become atheists, and the type of people that follow religion, in terms of how they go about things.

I'm not sure about that. Admittedly, I speak only from personal experience, but I've come to see a lot of importance in the distinction between god as an ontological truth and god as a state of thought. As an atheist, I deny the former, but the latter is central to my life. I don't believe in god, but I believe very strongly that I know what it feels like to experience god, and this feeling became so important to me that it's become the center of my studies in musicology. I'm no less of an atheist now than I was as a Nietzsche-quoting adolescent, but I think there is a wealth of personal happiness and fulfillment to be found in embracing spirituality as a sort of extension of our aesthetic selves. In essence, I think the question of whether god exists is less important than the beauty in the idea of god. And since beauty is a personal experience, god is a personal experience as well, which is why I think god has absolutely nothing to do with morality. My feelings of awe in the face of existence are between me and the universe, and have nothing to do with the way I conduct myself in relation to others. Religious experiences can't make me a better or worse person, they can't help those less fortunate than I, and they can't protect me from bouts with existential despair. They are, like art or love, sources of pleasure unto themselves-- simply feelings (however ontologically "false" they may be) of the presence of what the Sufis often called "the Beloved."

I enjoyed your post

[TrashMan]

How would the fact that now, and throughout history, admitted Atheists are called devils, murdered, and generally persecuted not leave an Atheist to feel a bit of distaste for religion?

I'm not aware of them being called devils, except by maybe a few extremists...and murdered? Who? When?  and most importantly - by whom and why?

Aside from Atheism when it's attached to political agendas such as Communism, I rarely hear of Atheists seriously calling for the murder, torture, or suppression of religious believers.

Some extremists do, but in general, they are more subtle.

Admittedly extremism is bad for both, and usually extremists compose only a small portion of a group, but I believe you'll find many more extremist religious folks than extremist Atheists.

Got any numbers to back that up?




Oh one more thought.. I thought that in todays world it was customary to be innocent until proven guilty... anyone actually got any solid proof that religion (and organized religion) is evil? No?... Thought so.

[TrashMan]

I would, but that why bother?

The other Christians on this topic have managed to conduct themselves as adults. It would probably be in their interests to not have you bringing the tone down with juvenile nonsense and borderline trolling. You choose of your own volition to enter an adult discussion. You're expected to act with the decorum the rest of us shown.

Allow me to laugh at that.

That effort would be lost on you anyway, since apparently you're only interested in shouting to the world how horrible and stupid religious people are (Christians in particular) and how religion is the great evil that opresses.

Gone straight to the argumentum ad hominem I see. Last refuge of someone unable to actually argue the point.

In no discussion do I ever start with ad hominem attacks.. and I generally refrain from them. I'm sorry if you're insulted by that sentance but that's the "vibe" I've been getting from you (and a few other people). I hope I'm wrong on that, I really do.

[karajorma]

That effort would be lost on you anyway, since apparently you're only interested in shouting to the world how horrible and stupid religious people are (Christians in particular) and how religion is the great evil that opresses.

Gone straight to the argumentum ad hominem I see. Last refuge of someone unable to actually argue the point.

In no discussion do I ever start with ad hominem attacks.. and I generally refrain from them. I'm sorry if you're insulted by that sentance but that's the "vibe" I've been getting from you (and a few other people). I hope I'm wrong on that, I really do.

You started one with that post rather than answer the question I posted and you STILL haven't answered the question and instead made another comment about the vibe you are getting as an excuse not to answer me.

I'll ask again. What part of this statement is crap.

Christians see is as an affirmation of their faith. Atheists see it as a manipulative way of enforcing arbitrary rules. So yes, it's a very good metaphor for Christianity.

[Flipside]

Admittedly extremism is bad for both, and usually extremists compose only a small portion of a group, but I believe you'll find many more extremist religious folks than extremist Atheists.

Got any numbers to back that up?

It's not a question of 'numbers'  it's a question of history, you don't even have to look very hard at history to find that people saying 'my God is better than your God' have created a lot more wars, misery and suffering than people saying 'God doesn't exist.' - at least unless it involves persecution by those who disagree.

As for this:-

Oh one more thought.. I thought that in todays world it was customary to be innocent until proven guilty... anyone actually got any solid proof that religion (and organized religion) is evil? No?... Thought so.

You know, you really shouldn't ask that question if you yourself are going to answer it and consider it closed without bothering to see if there is any reply.

For a start, define 'evil'. Pol Pot did not wake up one morning and think 'I know, I'll be a cold-hearted dictator who murders indiscriminately!', he truly believed what he was doing was for the best. Like the Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, the Crusades, the Catholic/Protestant confrontations in Ireland, everyone believed that what they were doing for 'God's will' at the time. So no, the church as a body is not evil, it did not wake up one morning and think, 'I know, let's go accuse some innocent women of being witches and burn them!', however, intent does not equal act, and what they did, which was go accuse some innocent women of being witches and burning them, was an act of evil, the ends did not, will not and cannot justify the means.

[Stealth]

why does this always (de)generate into paragraphs upon paragraphs of responses?

i don't want to read a book here.  shoot.

is that how atheists work?  they need 6 pages to explain their beliefs? (or lack thereof)?

[karajorma]

*points at first post*

[General Battuta]

i don't want to read a book here.  shoot.

is that how atheists work?  they need 6 pages to explain their beliefs? (or lack thereof)?

How many pages is the Bible? More than six? Indeed it is.

all that stuff Trashman said

Are atheists considered evil?

The atheist says to the Christian, 'you are no more than I: no better, no worse. We are equals.'

The Christian says to the atheist, 'because you don't believe what I believe, you will not be saved. You will burn in hell.'

Do you see the difference? The religious man judges other people on entirely irrational criteria. There is no observable evidence for God. It's as if I one day decided that those who don't act in accordance with their astrological signs will be punished -- except that religion has thousands of years of cultural momentum behind it.

Trashman, here's some reasons I would say religion is evil --

The persecution of Galileo. The death of Joan of Arc. The Children's Crusade (and all the others.) The fact that people who are born homosexuals, genetically different from the straight population, are unable to lead full lives. The use of non-Bayesian logic and superstition to control people. The Catholic Church's refusal to endorse women priests or birth control, thereby perpetuating gender inequality. The American evangelical movement's support for intolerance and war. Intelligent Design's crusade against open and free investigation (one which appears to be failing miserably.)

Most of all, the fact that religion seeks to 'fix' human behavior with guilt and threats dressed up as salvation, rather than through actual solutions.

However, religion definitely does some good things in a community-service sense. I went to church very often in my youth, and we did a lot of giving to charity. If there were more churches like that and fewer yowling evangelical megachurch preachers, Christianity would have a better name.