[TrashMan]

Trashman, did you actually just say that women are a weaker sex?

I am literally trembling with rage. That is sexist and misogynistic, and I believe it violates the forum code of conduct. What's more, it's absolutely reprehensible.

Rian is right. A female athlete is a hell of a lot stronger than a male couch potato. I believe, in fact, that the strength overlap is something like seventy percent. That's right -- 70% of women are just as strong as comparable men.

Trashman, Goatmaster, you are absolutely wrong that women are unsuited to some jobs. Weak people are unsuited to some jobs. If a woman can pass a physical fitness test then she should damn well be able to do the job. Anyone with a modicum of education -- or experience with athletic women -- should know that most women can pass these tests.

I am nauseated by some of the things the men in this thread are saying.

*sigh*

Women are reffered to as a weaker/fairer sex...or are you also insulted by the fairer bit? It's a perfecly legit, common term and you're the first woman I know that actually got insulted by that term. Sorry it if offends you.

As far as jobs go, there are some jobs where you only want only the absolutely best and fittest - like commandos/SEALs/Delta Force. Only the fittest of the fittest and the best of the fest can apply. Now, while a physicly fit woman candidate can be excellent, the male has that initial advantage that I mentioned in the first thread. It doesn't matter if that makes then man 20% stronger or 5% faster, or heck, even with 2% faster reflexes - those 1-2% can mean a difference between life and death. So yea, I would rather have a man in my unit (if I served there) than a woman.

This was an extreeme example, but it just goes to show you - women can do ANY job and can excel in many of them, but there are some in which the very elite will always be male (unless some heavy genetic engineering takes place). I suspect there are some jobs in which females would have the advantage.

[Ransom]

Wow. So, uh... is this a new low for HLP debates? I think it's in the running.

TrashMan. Seriously - stop digging. Please.

[NGTM-1R]

Just when you think he's hit bedrock, he breaks out the drill and some dynamite.

[G0atmaster]

I think you missed the point entirely.  There's a huge difference between not able, and not allowed.  Let's look at it from a different perspective.  When was the last time you've ever seen someone who was gay, addicted, or non Christian welcomed to your Church?  Or to ANY Church for that matter?  I've known many people whom fit that description in one way or another, and not a single one was welcomed to their places of worship.  My old pastor (before I decided to never return to Church again) was talking about how the state was forcing equal opportunity on them.  At one point he said "I'd rather be thrown behind bars than to accept a gay man playing in my choir."

Any truly Christian church should welcome all people.  Your pastor's words disgust me.  For one, it's not his choir.  Nor is it his church.  Both are God's alone.  Now, I wouldn't want a person who is actively living a homosexual lifestyle to be in a leadership position at my church, but that's a totally separate discussion.  Living in sin without even trying to follow righteousness is a little bit different than walking in the "path of righteousness" (forgive my overly "churchy" lingo) and occasionally stumbling.

Well, forgive me for my heresy and blasphemy, but I would think Christ would be very happy knowing that a gay man was singing his praises of love and mercy, rather than not being allowed to.  Christ was (or is, depending on how you look at it) the embodiment of love.  Love does not discriminate, nor does it blame.  It is pure.  Can you say the same about Christ?  Absolutely.  Can you say the same about Christianity?  Absolutely not.

  I agree with this statement.  It is not blasphemous or heretical.  Christians who are truly trying to follow in the footsteps of Christ and who actually believe and live by the Bible would agree with you, for it says in 1 Corinthians 13 verses 1-7:

 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

And in case it was missed, that video I posted wasn't specifically about the post it was in.  Here it is again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msJrL7o6RpU

By looking at that video, you have to agree that Christianity should take a long, hard look at itself in how very little it follows the guidelines taught by Christ.  Hell, It'd be more accurate to call it anti-christ.  Just because we were given the gift of love does not give us the right to keep it to ourselves.

Yes, that's what the video sets out to do, to a degree.  John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Who was it who said "I like your Christ, and I like your Christians. I hope one day to meet one.".

I think it was Sitting Bull?

IDK who said that quote, but Ghandi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Ghandi had read the Bible, and felt compelled to become a Christian.  Then he saw the way "Christians" acted and was disgusted.

The decliners declined because they didn't want steve to suffer needlessly. If Christianity... apperently... dismisses that as a wrong thing...

Suffer needlessly?  In order to go to the party, they had to pay for their wrongs.  The only place I can think of where this metaphor falls short is where it fails to acknowledge that most of the people could have done 10 push-ups.

Trashman, Goatmaster, you are absolutely wrong that women are unsuited to some jobs. Weak people are unsuited to some jobs. If a woman can pass a physical fitness test then she should damn well be able to do the job. Anyone with a modicum of education -- or experience with athletic women -- should know that most women can pass these tests.

  I agree with that statement.  However, for some things, a woman would need to work a lot harder to build the strength to be able to pass that physical fitness test.  Whereas men typically fall short in the area of natural flexibility, for example, and thus need to do WAY more flexibility stretching to be able to, say, drop into the splits.  That's not to say they can't.  I know guys who can drop into the splits, and I know women who can do pull-ups well into the double digits.  In my example stated earlier, I could probably play the guitar if I spent years training in it.  However, mixing music came naturally.  It's just something I was suited for.

[Rian]

*sigh*

Women are reffered to as a weaker/fairer sex...or are you also insulted by the fairer bit? It's a perfecly legit, common term and you're the first woman I know that actually got insulted by that term. Sorry it if offends you.

I think you mean women were referred to as the weaker or fairer sex. Unless you live in the nineteenth century, or maybe Iran, this is not broadly acceptable in modern culture. I think any woman I know would be offended by that.

Bonus fact: 'fairer,' though sometimes intended as a synonym for beauty, originally just meant 'whiter,' because that was beautiful at the time. As in, she never goes outside the house so her skin is milky pale. Yeah, I think that is a little offensive.

As for your example, say you have a small pool of candidates for this position, both male and female. You subject them all to a round of fitness testing. Maybe the males do better on average, but a woman or two still makes it into the top five or whatever.

Now, presumably they beat out a couple men to get there, as that gender overlap we were talking about does exist. Are you going to reject these women who made it into the top spots just because the men had a higher average? Even though the women are the best of the pool you have available? This happens to people. It is absolutely wrong to judge individuals on the basis of the average for their demographic. Hold them to high standards, fine. But hold everyone to the same high standards, and take them on their individual merits.

Honestly, I respect that - but were talking about religion (in other words) in a perfect "Christian" world this is the teaching.

This is not a mandate for slavery against women, but merely a form of conduct made by both man and women to honor Christ.  This does NOT include abusive or downright wrong/slave behavior, hence the "perfect world" words I spoke earlier.

A relationship based on submission to one’s husband is inherently unequal and demeaning, whether or not it entails physical or other abuse. If this is the conception of a perfect world, then, returning to the original point, that is evil. Honestly, I don’t think that’s the case, and I don’t think the majority of Christians – of whom I know and like many – believe it is.

[G0atmaster]

So, say you're married, and the two of you disagree on something that's somewhat important.  Are you going to disagree all your life or get a divorce over this one, semi-important detail in your relationship?

[Rian]

So, say you're married, and the two of you disagree on something that's somewhat important.  Are you going to disagree all your life or get a divorce over this one, semi-important detail in your relationship?

You’re going to talk it out and reach a compromise like adults and equals.

[NGTM-1R]

So, say you're married, and the two of you disagree on something that's somewhat important.  Are you going to disagree all your life or get a divorce over this one, semi-important detail in your relationship?

So you're suggesting that even in the most stupid of circumstances the female should always yield?

[jdjtcagle]

Rian - I believe I'm painting the wrong picture for you.  Believe me I'm getting married to the most stubborn person in the world.  I can't tell her to do anything.

A relationship is about respect, listening, and compromises. What I told you is the biblical teaching on how relationships should work.
Paul tells the men to love the women as he loves himself - literally - "He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth it and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church" 

I love my soon to be wife, we do live together because she has nobody else.  As I said "in a perfect world" There isn't arguments nor quarrels.  No need for this teaching if we did live in a perfect world.  But we don't, this is a compromise on our part as imperfect humans, to listen and make decisions based on suggestions coming from both parties. If we can't decide somebody sometimes has to make the hard choices.  For the sake of unity we have to sometimes submit.  This scripture lays the responsibility of decision on the men. 

I admit it sounds degrading but the context it shows it's not.

[TrashMan]

I think you mean women were referred to as the weaker or fairer sex. Unless you live in the nineteenth century, or maybe Iran, this is not broadly acceptable in modern culture. I think any woman I know would be offended by that.

I would be careful not to brand myself as the flag bearer of modern culture. And in a unrelated rant, modern culture (in general) can kiss my ***.

Bonus fact: 'fairer,' though sometimes intended as a synonym for beauty, originally just meant 'whiter,' because that was beautiful at the time. As in, she never goes outside the house so her skin is milky pale. Yeah, I think that is a little offensive.

Fairer was meant to mean more beautiful (which women are..they are easier on the eyes..LOL ). In this case you are going out of your way to GET offended. Why don't you run each of my words and sentences trough a computer algorithm that will check it trough every possible meaning in every possible language and combination othereoff, and if you fin even a hint that one MIGHT bne taken offensively, scream bloody murder.
Heck, you can't even compliment someone these days...

Now, presumably they beat out a couple men to get there, as that gender overlap we were talking about does exist. Are you going to reject these women who made it into the top spots just because the men had a higher average? Even then though the women are the best of the pool you have available? This happens to people. It is absolutely wrong to judge individuals on the basis of the average for their demographic. Hold them to high standards, fine. But hold everyone to the same high standards, and take them on their individual merits.

Special forces do hold everyone to the highest standard and there are no women there. If you get an equal amount of willing and fit men and woman, that +1 STR bonus the men start out with is an advantage that tips the scales.

Please, don't think any of this as an offense, cause Lord knows I'm trying my not to offend you.
If you still think me a badmouthed chauvinist, all I can say is -  my sisters and all my female friends would disagree.

[General Battuta]

Incredible. Women are supposed to be the more emotional sex, but when I read this crap I had to stop for a moment and cry (and for those of you who are confused, I'm a straight male and I always have been, NOT a female). I'm not ashamed to admit that it offended me that strongly.

Fairer was meant to mean more beautiful (which women are..they are easier on the eyes..LOL ). In this case you are going out of your way to GET offended. Why don't you run each of my words and sentences trough a computer algorithm that will check it trough every possible meaning in every possible language and combination othereoff, and if you fin even a hint that one MIGHT bne taken offensively, scream bloody murder.
Heck, you can't even compliment someone these days..

You just told her that she was going out of her way to get offended? After you've told her she should be barred from certain positions, forced to submit to her husband, and treated as subordinate to you just because she's got an extra goddamn X chromosome?

Rian, if you left the community because of the things TrashMan has said here, I would not blame you. I'm appalled.

Trashman, you're an imbecile. If a woman passed a Special Operations qualification exam she'd be just as fit as anyone else to serve, and you would do damn well to trust her. Aren't you familiar with all the records of female snipers and front-line infantry fighters -- in Russia, in China, in Vietnam? They did just as well as the males, and in many cases surpassed them.

Rian - I believe I'm painting the wrong picture for you.

...

I admit it sounds degrading but the context it shows it's not.

Yes, it is.

My God, you're so blind. I wish you could be made a woman for a year to see how it is.

There are a lot of intelligent, moral people on Hard Light. Where are you? I was expecting a crushing wave of indignation at this kind of talk, but it seems like Trashman, Goatmaster, and and jdjtcagle are being given free reign for misogyny.

Can you imagine the reaction if they were saying these kinds of things about black people?

[jdjtcagle]

Please don't associate me with Trashman. I don't agree with pretty much anything he says, ever.

Re-read my post.

[General Battuta]

All right, I can see what you're saying.

So long as you don't expect women to enter the kind of arrangement you're suggesting without their consent, I don't have a problem with it. But if you want that imposed on everyone, I'm repelled.

I think you have have maintained an admirable standard of decency even when you're saying things I disagree with, jdjtcagle. Props for that. I know the judgment's subjective but hopefully it's reassuring nonetheless.

[Ransom]

There are a lot of intelligent, moral people on Hard Light. Where are you? I was expecting a crushing wave of indignation at this kind of talk, but it seems like Trashman, Goatmaster, and and jdjtcagle are being given free reign for misogyny.

I for one would gladly join in, Battuta, but I've come to realise that TrashMan is impossible to argue with. He does not listen to other people, and you won't change his opinion here. There is no other person on this forum who is more like a brick wall.

Frankly I think it'd be best if this thread was locked. This isn't going anywhere pleasant and I'd rather HLP didn't scare off any more quality members thanks to an idiotic debate.

[G0atmaster]

Please don't associate me with Trashman. I don't agree with pretty much anything he says, ever.

Re-read my post.

What he said.

And as far as it not going anywhere pleasant,  There's a good deal said a few posts back that's worth reading and discussing yet.

And if all else fails, we could get back on topic...

[General Battuta]

A lock would be good, but frankly, I worry the damage is already irreparable.

What he said.

And as far as it not going anywhere pleasant,  There's a good deal said a few posts back that's worth reading and discussing yet.

And if all else fails, we could get back on topic...

I'm sorry, but if you're stung by being compared to TrashMan, maybe you need to realize that from my perspective you're not acting very different.

[karajorma]

Sorry, submission as prescribed social role is always a negative thing. To say otherwise is like saying it’s ok to own slaves so long as you’re nice to them.

As a matter of fact the bible actually does say that too.

Rian, if you left the community because of the things TrashMan has said here, I would not blame you. I'm appalled.

Rian shouldn't take this kind of nonsense as proof of the general feeling here on HLP.

[jdjtcagle]

All right, I can see what you're saying.

So long as you don't expect women to enter the kind of arrangement you're suggesting without their consent, I don't have a problem with it. But if you want that imposed on everyone, I'm repelled.

I don't believe anything should be forced on anybody.  We are human beings and I never want to forget that.

I think you have have maintained an admirable standard of decency even when you're saying things I disagree with, jdjtcagle. Props for that. I know the judgment's subjective but hopefully it's reassuring nonetheless.

Thank you, that means

[General Battuta]

Rian shouldn't take this kind of nonsense as proof of the general feeling here on HLP.

With all due respect, Karajorma -- acknowledging that you're one of the most stable, considerate, intelligent, and reliable people on HLP -- that's really not our place to decide, is it?

TrashMan, you need to understand something: I'm not a woman. I had a female user sharing my account before she registered her own. That user's now posting under the name Rian.

Is that clear? I'm not saying these things because I'm a woman, or because I feel that women need defending -- clearly Rian can take care of herself, and she does it more calmly and reasonably than I do. I'm objecting to your attitudes because they're sexist and evil.

[karajorma]

There are a lot of intelligent, moral people on Hard Light. Where are you? I was expecting a crushing wave of indignation at this kind of talk, but it seems like Trashman, Goatmaster, and and jdjtcagle are being given free reign for misogyny.

Does the phrase giving someone enough rope mean anything to you?

Let's face it, Trashman's rant against women in the army (not to mention the RPG explanation) has done more to undermine his position than any number of posts I could have made on the subject.