Author Topic: A very good metaphor  (Read 19958 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
*sigh* I guess it's good to know I'm not alone, then.

I don't pretend to want to convince him. I know that's futile. But at some point I hope he earns the social sanction he so rightly deserves.

 

Offline jdjtcagle

  • 211
  • Already told you people too much!
Also to make something else clear, I'm discussing women in a biblical relationship pertaining to marriage.

I just don't want to be misunderstood at all :)
"Brings a tear of nostalgia to my eye" -Flipside
------------------------------------------
I'm an Apostolic Christian (Acts: 2:38)
------------------------------------------
Official Interplay Freespace Stories
Predator
Hammer Of Light - Omen of Darkness
Freefall in Darkness
A Thousand Years

 

Offline Rian

  • 26
Rian - I believe I'm painting the wrong picture for you.  Believe me I'm getting married to the most stubborn person in the world.  I can't tell her to do anything. :p

A relationship is about respect, listening, and compromises. What I told you is the biblical teaching on how relationships should work.
Paul tells the men to love the women as he loves himself - literally - "He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth it and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church" 

I love my soon to be wife, we do live together because she has nobody else.  As I said "in a perfect world" There isn't arguments nor quarrels.  No need for this teaching if we did live in a perfect world.  But we don't, this is a compromise on our part as imperfect humans, to listen and make decisions based on suggestions coming from both parties. If we can't decide somebody sometimes has to make the hard choices.  For the sake of unity we have to sometimes submit.  This scripture lays the responsibility of decision on the men. 

I admit it sounds degrading but the context it shows it's not.
My objection was to the injunction to submit, which I am well aware is drawn from scripture. No matter what kind of justification or pretty sentiment surrounds it, the explicit meaning of the word and its use is that the woman is intended to bow to her husband’s will, and to allow him to make all the decisions. And that is degrading no matter what the context.

 I think it’s necessary to recognize that, whatever pearls of great and lasting wisdom they do contain, most of the major religious texts are hundreds or thousands of years old and they reflect the social attitudes of earlier eras. I believe that it is wrong for organized religion to continue espousing such an outdated and inequitable standard for human relationships, whatever its textual basis. As I mentioned earlier, I am fairly sure that a great many of religions and sects do not uphold inequity in this manner.

 
I think you have have maintained an admirable standard of decency even when you're saying things I disagree with, jdjtcagle.
I’d like to second this. You’ve been very reasonable throughout this conversation. While I disagree completely with some of the things you’ve said, I have not been offended by your manner of expressing them.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Trashman, in response to your comment that women are easier on the eyes, you do understand that this is because you're a male, right? You're perpetuating a male-centric, patriarchal view. There are women everywhere who would much rather look at men. To them, we're the fairer sex.

Do you understand what this quote means?

Quote from: Okin, Feminism and Multiculturalism
For a woman or girl to be treated as a sexual object, rather than as a person whose body is her body, not someone else's "object of desire", is an unacceptable breach of her basic rights.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 04:23:43 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • FLAMES OF WAR
You just told her that she was going out of her way to get offended? After you've told her she should be barred from certain positions, forced to submit to her husband, and treated as subordinate to you just because she's got an extra goddamn X chromosome?

Exactly when have I said that? :wtf:
I'm not telling her what she should or should not do, nor am I telling her to be a subordinate to anyone. I'm not forcing nor do I want to force anything on anyone.

I'm saying that specific groups can have internal rules that neither I or you have to like. If someone wants to create a group/order/church with no man allowed to even enter I would have no problem with that. Your house, your rules.


Quote
If a woman passed a Special Operations qualification exam she'd be just as fit as anyone else to serve, and you would do damn well to trust her. Aren't you familiar with all the records of female snipers and front-line infantry fighters -- in Russia, in China, in Vietnam? They did just as well as the males, and in many cases surpassed them.

Sniper isn't the same as a front-line commando. And I'm saying females aren't good soldiers or incapable of serving in special forces.


Quote
Trashman, in response to your comment that women are easier on the eyes, you do understand that this is because you're a male, right? You're perpetuating a male-centric, patriarchal view. There are women everywhere who would much rather look at men. To them, we're the fairer sex.

Maybe.. I'm trying to be objective here as it seems to me most females have finer facial lines, better taste in clothing and generally take care of themselves better...ergo, easier on the eyes.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

  

Offline jdjtcagle

  • 211
  • Already told you people too much!
Quote
I think it’s necessary to recognize that, whatever pearls of great and lasting wisdom they do contain, most of the major religious texts are hundreds or thousands of years old and they reflect the social attitudes of earlier eras. I believe that it is wrong for organized religion to continue espousing such an outdated and inequitable standard for human relationships, whatever its textual basis. As I mentioned earlier, I am fairly sure that a great many of religions and sects do not uphold inequity in this manner.

I respect what you've said whole heartedly but sadly I'm going to have agree to disagree with you.

I live of a very strict religious practice - wouldn't you agree with me that if you believe in something you should practice the entirety of it?  Not pick and chose what I want to?  I believe that's the problem with Christianity.  I could talk more about ancient social attitudes and modern practice more but now I don't have time.  Maybe another thread. 

Now I'm off to spend time with my "extremely" stubborn Fiancee (sp?) :P
"Brings a tear of nostalgia to my eye" -Flipside
------------------------------------------
I'm an Apostolic Christian (Acts: 2:38)
------------------------------------------
Official Interplay Freespace Stories
Predator
Hammer Of Light - Omen of Darkness
Freefall in Darkness
A Thousand Years

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Does the phrase giving someone enough rope mean anything to you? :D

Let's face it, Trashman's rant against women in the army (not to mention the RPG explanation) has done more to undermine his position than any number of posts I could have made on the subject.

My position is undermined only in the eyes of people to stupid to understand what I mean....

Interesting use of phrases tough..."rant against" .. like I'm actually advocating the removal of women from the army (which any sane person reading my post would clearly see it's not the case) .. this wasn't a rant against anything.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
If women wish to join the army that is their choice. What kind of sick nanny stateism do you espouse where you can claim that removing women from the army for their own good is a pro-woman stance?

I'm saying that specific groups can have internal rules that neither I or you have to like. If someone wants to create a group/order/church with no man allowed to even enter I would have no problem with that. Your house, your rules.

Until you claim that they are God's rules of course.

Which is exactly the issue here. We aren't dealing with the by laws of the Hextable Lawn Bowling Association. We're talking about groups who claim that their rules come straight from God. So either you admit that the Church is wrong to exclude women because God has no objection to it or you admit that they are right and God doesn't want women priests.

You can't hide behind claiming it's a tradition without claiming it's a tradition God doesn't agree with.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Well, I could have discussed about the Religion in general, but seems that things have taken an unexpected turn to somewhere else. This gender equality or inequality, I think it is overblown today. Too many people shout about it.

How many of the writers have actually served with women in army? I have. Putting women to the front lines is not really a good idea, but it is only partly related to endurance and strength. There are several other more compelling factors involved. And by front lines I mean the assaulting troops (well your basic grunt, though I wonder where does that term come from), not snipers or guerillas.

Besides I thought French resistance used women in their operations. Other field operations, like intelligence, supply or communications are a fair game. But please not to the front line. Or special forces. Airforce I'm not sure about, women might actually make physically better pilots, but then there are a couple of other things which I count as a downside.

Then again, during the years I have trained martial arts I have never seen a woman who could surpass man's strength or hardness if both trained as hard as possible. Even your typical family father has more muscular strength than highly athletic women. Then again, naturally bones of the men become more dense and more resistant to impacts. However, flexibility, balance, coordination and fluidity is where men usually have a lot more trouble.

True equality begins with acknowledging that genders have their differences, other being more suitable to certain task than the other. Only then you can learn to respect your significant others - and then you have equality.

Quote
For a woman or girl to be treated as a sexual object, rather than as a person whose body is her body, not someone else's "object of desire", is an unacceptable breach of her basic rights.

I acknowledge that mainly this is because of men's attitude, but women themselves are not completely innocent about this either.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
I find that the more I ignore Trash, the better my day gets. Don't take it personally, gents, everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if it's wrong/doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 05:18:37 pm by Unknown Target »

 

Offline Zoltan

  • 26
I respect what you've said whole heartedly but sadly I'm going to have agree to disagree with you.

I live of a very strict religious practice - wouldn't you agree with me that if you believe in something you should practice the entirety of it?  Not pick and chose what I want to?  I believe that's the problem with Christianity.  I could talk more about ancient social attitudes and modern practice more but now I don't have time.  Maybe another thread. 

Now I'm off to spend time with my "extremely" stubborn Fiancee (sp?) :P


I think the worst members of religions are the sorts of people that show up to church on Sunday (and subsequently daydream the whole time) and automatically think that they are favored in some way. That being said, I believe that it is most important to think for oneself, not be led blindly through life. I would be more than happy to not be part of the flock, if it meant not being a sheep... 
"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five." - Groucho Marx

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • FLAMES OF WAR
If women wish to join the army that is their choice. What kind of sick nanny stateism do you espouse where you can claim that removing women from the army for their own good is a pro-woman stance?

Kaj, I never said that women should be removed from the army..learn to read.

Quote
I'm saying that specific groups can have internal rules that neither I or you have to like. If someone wants to create a group/order/church with no man allowed to even enter I would have no problem with that. Your house, your rules.

Until you claim that they are God's rules of course.

Which is exactly the issue here. We aren't dealing with the by laws of the Hextable Lawn Bowling Association. We're talking about groups who claim that their rules come straight from God. So either you admit that the Church is wrong to exclude women because God has no objection to it or you admit that they are right and God doesn't want women priests.

You can't hide behind claiming it's a tradition without claiming it's a tradition God doesn't agree with.

It's not a rule. Never was. And no, I don't claim either of those two options you so neatly attempt to steer me in.
As far as I know God has no objection to woman priests, but the Church excluding them is not wrong by itself. As far as I know God has no objections to priests having a wife, but the Church has said no so far. I don't have to like all of the rules, but I know the church (or any other group) has the right to run it's house the way it wants to.
I won't mind at all if that church rule is changed (In fact, I'm all for it), but the rule by itself, it's reason and application, are not "evil".
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • FLAMES OF WAR
I find that the more I ignore Trash, the better my day gets. Don't take it personally, gents, everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if it's wrong/doesn't make sense.

But where the FUN in that? :p
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Zoltan

  • 26
It's not a rule. Never was. And no, I don't claim either of those two options you so neatly attempt to steer me in.
As far as I know God has no objection to woman priests, but the Church excluding them is not wrong by itself. As far as I know God has no objections to priests having a wife, but the Church has said no so far. I don't have to like all of the rules, but I know the church (or any other group) has the right to run it's house the way it wants to.
I won't mind at all if that church rule is changed (In fact, I'm all for it), but the rule by itself, it's reason and application, are not "evil".

There, you just highlighted the issue; the Church claims to be following the word of God, when in reality they are following the words of men that are no better or worse (or divine) than anyone else. So what would compel one to abide by the rules laid down by men in a society that no longer exists?
"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five." - Groucho Marx

 

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
The thing is, you guys are still arguing with Trash. Once you've talked to him long enough, you'll realize he doesn't actually listen to what you're saying. He hears it, but he doesn't comprehend it as a possibility - all it is is more evidence that is wrong.

 

Offline colecampbell666

  • I See Dead Pictures
  • 212
  • Evolution and ascension.
The thing is, you guys are still arguing with Trash. Once you've talked to him long enough, you'll realize he doesn't actually listen to what you're saying. He hears it, but he doesn't comprehend it as a possibility - all it is is more evidence that is wrong.
Which correlates with his beliefs...
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Kaj, I never said that women should be removed from the army...

[and later]

It's not a rule. Never was. And no, I don't claim either of those two options you so neatly attempt to steer me in.

As far as I know God has no objection to woman priests, but the Church excluding them is not wrong by itself. As far as I know God has no objections to priests having a wife, but the Church has said no so far. I don't have to like all of the rules, but I know the church (or any other group) has the right to run it's house the way it wants to.

I won't mind at all if that church rule is changed (In fact, I'm all for it), but the rule by itself, it's reason and application, are not "evil".

Now that you've gotten to the point of redacting previous statements and carefully pruning away previous implications, I'm content to rest my case.

As for your comment that the church (or any other group) has the right to run its house the way it wants to -- please be aware that gender and race discrimination lawsuits are an almost daily occurrence, suggesting that no, groups do not have the right to run their own house.

I'm well-settled on the topic now, and I've said all I want to. Trashman, I trust you're now aware that most men and women are of overlapping and equivalent physical ability, and that -- while the strongest man is a lot stronger than the strongest woman -- those inequalities only hold on the extremes.

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
I weep for Hard Light.
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 

Offline Goober5000

  • HLP Loremaster
  • 214
    • Goober5000 Productions
You know, there are some good points on both sides here, but the whole thing is getting drowned out by TrashMan's train wreck of an argument.  TrashMan, do everybody a favor and shut up.  You're sabotaging your own argument here.  You're your own strawman.  Nothing is more foolish than a little knowledge without understanding -- go read Proverbs or something.

Everybody else: If you want to have a civilized debate on Christianity, or gender issues from a religious perspective, or anything like that, feel free to PM jdjtcagle or Sandwich or me or someone who knows what they're talking about.  I'm sure any of us would be happy to chat with you in a courteous, respectful, and reasoned manner.

I'm going to put TrashMan on the short list for monkey candidates once I get around to posting the new policy.  In the meantime, I'm not opposed to people having a respectful debate, but I'm not going to let TrashMan anywhere near it.