Author Topic: Global Warming a reality  (Read 15406 times)

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Offline Mika

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Re: Global Warming a reality
Take all the time you need. I will not be online till Monday at least. I think the most important report you can find from Segalstad's page is the paper about ice drillings. That would be the first thing I would read, then concentrate on Segalstad's thermodynamic calculations.

Mika
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Offline Turey

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Re: Global Warming a reality
I'm not going to read through all the posts in this thread, I don't have the time.

My position is thus:

Global Warming may or may not be happening, and it may or may not be caused by humans. Who cares.

However, it doesn't hurt to develop more fuel-efficient, less-polluting cars. It doesn't hurt to reduce factory emissions. There's no downside to biking to work every once in a while, or taking public transportation. So why not do it?

There's nothing wrong with improving human technology for the sake of improving human technology, and if it adverts global warming in the process, that's a great side effect.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Global Warming a reality
First of all, I find it quite surprising how the hell IPCC can even think of using those ice drillings as a proof of climate warming by CO2. It is pretty much inconceivable how the hell they have managed to make that go through the scientific review process, and even more so, I find it strange that so many scientists have swallowed it. I hope this is simply because of ignorance of the drilling process itself. Please read that 58 page report which is quite revealing about the "accuracy" of those measurements. Sometimes even tobacco smoke has been found inside those small bubbles! The actual measured CO2 level is a function of drilling depth, and explanation for this behavior is given there.

The close parallels on this image between CO2 and temperature don't interest you (given that temperature is directly measureable through Oxygen isotopy?)

For the record, I'm an educated fence sitter on the whole issue. I've had Global warming thrown at me by Geology lecturers (generally skeptics) and Biology lecturers (Generally alarmists) so I've seen both angles, and a lot of conflicting data. I like to think I'm clever enough at least to know the stuff that I don't know, so while I'll point out stuff on both sides, I don't have a coherent position.
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Offline Mika

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Re: Global Warming a reality
This has actually been referred before. I recommend reading Jaworowskis paper about Vostok ice drillings. It is quite good conclusion about the reliability of those measurements. I will not refer it here since shortening it into a couple of sentences is oversimplification at best.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Global Warming a reality
This has actually been referred before. I recommend reading Jaworowskis paper about Vostok ice drillings. It is quite good conclusion about the reliability of those measurements. I will not refer it here since shortening it into a couple of sentences is oversimplification at best.

Mika

I read a summary of it (By the man himself, link, and immediately a few problems jumped out. First, using Jaworowskis ideas, surely CO2 concentration should not vary significant beyond a certain depth? Surely, at the very least, it should not be expected to vary in a pattern almost identical to that of oxygen isotopy, which is a very-near-direct measurment of average hemispherical oceanic surface temperature?

There are a few other problems immediately obvious to me. He cites fossil stomata frequency as evidence of CO2 concentration varying over three centuries. I just can not see how anything that reproduces as slowly as a tree can evolve fast enough to show a consistent associative trend between CO2 concentration and stomatal frequency over a period of two hundred years.

Actually, google...

Ah:
http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7

Better researched than I can come up with in 20 odd minutes.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Global Warming a reality
Wow... I actually agree with kajorama here on 99% of everything he said. Sign of the Apocalypse?
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Offline WeatherOp

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Re: Global Warming a reality
Been following recently what a Meteorologist has been saying about the Arctic Ice Sheet. I agree with him, it doesn't look likely we will get close to matching last years number.

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Offline Mika

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Re: Global Warming a reality
Here I would recommend not using this year to show the Global Warming has stopped. It looks like so in 2000s, but the period is too short to make that comment. Similar ditches are apparent in the temperature measurements before.

As for the rest of the comments from Blackwolf, thanks, I'm still going through the links provided from there. It will take a couple of days to get my thoughts "re-organised" about the issue.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Global Warming a reality
It took a couple of days (about 20 hours of work - on vacation time!), and the outcome could be summarized as: when you have ruled out everything impossible, all that is left must be the cause, however implausible it would seem. Even though green crackpots broke in to our local University, blaming astro-physicists of a general conspiracy since they didn't talk about global warming in their convention; it seems Greenies got it once right!

Yeah, it turns out Jaworowskis paper is actually misleading and intended to be so, and that is mildly said. Starting from the falsified Senate committee entry, this is quite strange from a person who has been a chairman of UN sub-organisation. Since Jaworowskis paper is misleading, you could easily forget everything what Segalstad says in his webpage due to that reason only. However, for those actually interested, the reason where his logic goes wrong is assuming a equilibrium state in calculations. Then the Nature articles are misleadingly referenced in Jaworowskis paper, the criticism has nothing to do with scientific process, but some other things. Again, it is strange that Jaworowski is falsifying also this. I admit I didn't check that since I didn't believe he could actually refer journal like Nature so incorrectly.

Then Becks paper (2007) is actually true, it is the arithmetic average of all the measured CO2 values from beginning of 1900s to current day. Unfortunately, those values reported by the articles by some other researchers, but it doesn't take account the proximity of traffic or factories. It seems to be quite easy to acquire far higher CO2 levels when measuring to the downwind side of a factory. So, the reported values are correct, but they have nothing to do with global CO2 level, and everything with local CO2 levels. Grays error is same kind of fault in logic, he mixes local phenomenom to global phenomenom.

Then, there are some other interesting pages, like:
http://www.norcalblogs.com/watts/weather_stations/

This is a group of global warming sceptics that has reviewed the conditions of each weather station in US. The work was done to show that the urban heat islands do have an effect in the temperature measurements. And, yes, they found out a lot of measurement errors, several coming from putting the sensors next to the sewage treatment container!

They then went on and put up data of weather stations they consider trustworthy. Surprisingly, the end result from those stations was quite close to the NASAs "corrected" results, though it is seen that those "corrections" might have nothing to do with local conditions (one of those primary stations by NASA was actually surrounded by parking lots!). The net results are the same due to the averaging of thousand stations (mainly from NASAs side I mean). I recommend going and watching those how to not measure temperature lists, they are quite funny from experimental physicists point of view at least. However, the sceptics have been quite honest in their calculations as they confirmed IPCC's temperature record, McIntyre included. This was the best kind of work sceptics could have done, so props for them about that.

So, in conclusion not all criticism is unfounded, but it seems that CO2 is the most probable agent that causes the warming. And, to conclude even further, it is not actually the total amount of CO2 what is the problem, it is the release rate since nature could most likely be able to sink a lot more with minimal effects, given enough time.

That being said, what can be done to avoid the predicted warming - i.e. to slow down output rate? I have at least one suggestion: remove all stand-by switches from electronics to real on/off switches. This is probably the most easiest to implement, causing a mild irritation in persons that are used to remote controls, but should be manageable. The second thing is to construct nuclear power plants, wind power plants and solar power plants where applicable. Though the best possible way is simply to shut down all electric equipment that doesn't need to be on.

In my opinion, no biofuel can help here, since they all release carbon anyhow (and you have a hard time to convince me that the rate of growth would exceed the rate of harvest, there by nullifying to CO2 output). And, luckily the price of oil is already going up, which is going to limit the driving. It will limit the food production also, though. In the end, it seems quite a lot of people are going to be needed in the countryside in the near future to upkeep the food production. The main traffic will probably be done using ships and trains, and air cargo will be much more expensive. The number of private cars is most likely going to drop drastically.

Should the organic fuel usage be curbed down, the simplest way is to add tax on any organic fuels. Then anyone who uses them have to pay taxes, not the rest of population. This will mean that the rich people will still drive carelessly with cars, while those people who would actually need it could not afford it. But differing from this will result in difficult discussion of a person's/nation's footprint in the world (inculding the warming/cooling costs, warming cost at least being necessary to sustain life...)

There is one wild card though, and that is the Golf current. Should it decide to reverse its course, then Europe turns actually quite a bit colder (this is actually reasonable, since the cold water from the melting North Pole has to go somewhere)...

Mika

EDIT: Replaced: organ -> organic. Reason: recalled that English doesn't work like Finnish.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 03:43:32 pm by Mika »
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Global Warming a reality
Wow, Mika, you actually found yourself convinced of something? On the Internet? I'm really impressed! (I don't even mean this sarcastically.) There aren't many folks who'd be open-minded and inquisitive enough to do that kind of research.

I admire your dedication and careful thought.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Global Warming a reality
Guys. I'm being thuper, THUPER therial here, we are ALL in THERIAL danger from MANBEARPIG! :shaking:
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Offline Agent_Koopa

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Re: Global Warming a reality
This thread and the massive lists of conflicting sources within it has caused me to lose all faith in authority, science, my fellow man, and everything I once held dear to me.
Interestingly enough, this signature is none of the following:
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A series of localized forum in-jokes
A clever and self-referential comment on the nature of signatures themselves.

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Offline redsniper

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Re: Global Warming a reality
This thread ... caused me to lose all faith in authority, science, my fellow man, and everything I once held dear to me.
Sounds like a Gen. Dis. thread. :D
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Offline Mika

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Re: Global Warming a reality
Quote
This thread and the massive lists of conflicting sources within it has caused me to lose all faith in authority, science, my fellow man, and everything I once held dear to me.

Welcome to Earth. You also just found out where true Science begins.

Quote
Sounds like a good Gen. Dis. thread.

Fix'd

In all seriousness, it was very difficult for me also to seek out what has been done, most of the deductions are based on research that was done before I existed! Even more difficult is the thing that some of the criticism is about as old, and was actually answered before I was born! Then on top of that, the sites like What's up with Watts contain quite good arguments about the measurement errors in local stations - which recently forced NOAA to review all over 1000 sites in US for more reliable temperature readings. This should not be mixed with global warming not happening, since the errors seem to have been diminished due to the sheer number of stations. Then there is the question what is happening around the stations elsewhere in the world, if US standard hasn't been met there...

Checking through the Bobboau's link, the Physics part there, was quite something which in my opinion, took away the credibility of that page.

This year seems to be quite exceptional in this country. July, and it is quite cold here (+20 of Celsius). It is about ten degrees less than a couple of years ago on the hottest days in July. Instead of that a huge pile of clouds seem to have decided to park above us permanently to rain all their content down just for laughs. But they said this was supposed to happen in winter time!

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.