Author Topic: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.  (Read 5491 times)

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Offline AlphaOne

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RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Oki so Here it goes there is a heated discussion over what should the Romanian Airforce be equiped.

There are 3 choices to be made regarding this. However i would of preffered 5 .

1-F16 :The drawback is that they can get only 24 new planes and 24 second hand [planes (evn though oland bought 48 new ones for the same money )

2- Saab Grippen A much newer planet then the aging F16 . It is also Cheaper and less expensive to operate and maintain. And it comes with a almost 100% offset program. Also the planes will be maintained and built by a romanian firm .

3-Eurofighter Typhoon one of the most advanced planes in the world . However it is also very expensive. Much more then the Saab and the F16 but it is latest generation plane.


These are the 3 official choices.

However i would of preferred to see also

5-The french built Rafalle
6-The Mirage Also from France. which are both superior planes when compared to the F 16 and perhaps even the Saab.   

The only major drawback aside from cost of the F 16 is the dated tech and frame of the lane. Sure numerous upgrades were made to it but that also increases the weight and cost of the plane far beyond its original intents. Making it a less agile dogfighter. It also requires numerous attachements in order to make use of the latest weapons sistems.




So i await your take on the matter. Opinions etc.

Please dont turn this into a nationalistic thing with the F 16 . Had the F 16 been a few decades younger it would of been the referred weapon of choice.


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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
From the way you put it, it seems like the Saab JAS 39 Gripen is the obvious choice.

EDIT
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 08:38:07 am by Ghostavo »
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Offline Al Tarket

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
process of elimination.

f-16: 24 new and 24 refurbished - low cost, but aging. no

Saab Gripped A: Sweden finest engine in the back of a fighter more less up to date, good cost progresive outcoomes. a big yes.

Typoon: too expensive. no

Rafelle: unknown plane, no info said. unsure if romania can have it.
Mirage: Mirage is a good fighter, the cost might be good, will france agree to it though?..
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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
  • Saab Grippen A

Under these circumstances, it really seems like the best choice

 

Offline Mika

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
AlphaOne, I think there isn't enough information on your post to say anything about this. (And if there were, I wonder what anyone could say about that here, except nuclear1 who is working with USAF.)

The things what I would consider are one engine / two engines configuration, role of the aircraft, where is the aircraft ought to be operated during crisis time, what kind of weapon systems and avionics do the conditions in Romania require, compatibility issues, what is the supposed threat and so on.

But then again, I never participated in any Air Force activity.

Mika
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Try and get some Su-35's... :p
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Offline Hellstryker

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Bah, wheres a perseus when you need one!? On topic though, the Saab Grippen does seem like the best choice, since you provided no info on the rafalle...

 

Offline MT

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Planes? For what? Air superiority, CAS, multi-role, interdiction-strike? Without stating the role, how can the suitability of various models be accessed?

When saying Mirage, at least say Mirage 2000. That plane is older than the Rafale and probably be partially replaced by it. Buying Mirage 2000s is like buying F16As when you ought be getting F16Cs Block 50/52.

*edit*
Anyway, it seems that the Mirage 2000 production line has been shut down. No one is going to pay to restart the line to produce 3-4 squadron's worth of planes.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 11:51:19 am by MT »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Oki so Here it goes there is a heated discussion over what should the Romanian Airforce be equiped.

There are 3 choices to be made regarding this. However i would of preffered 5 .

1-F16 :The drawback is that they can get only 24 new planes and 24 second hand [planes (evn though oland bought 48 new ones for the same money )

2- Saab Grippen A much newer planet then the aging F16 . It is also Cheaper and less expensive to operate and maintain. And it comes with a almost 100% offset program. Also the planes will be maintained and built by a romanian firm .

3-Eurofighter Typhoon one of the most advanced planes in the world . However it is also very expensive. Much more then the Saab and the F16 but it is latest generation plane.

5-The french built Rafalle
6-The Mirage Also from France. which are both superior planes when compared to the F 16 and perhaps even the Saab.

F-16: Marvelous dogfighter that would mop the floor with the others, superb multirole craft capable of handling almost any mission given it, but short range. Hardly obselete, a Block 52 with AMRAAMs will acquit itself well against any of these, though with the Typhoon it would be at some small disadvantage until it turned into a dogfight, where the F-16's smaller size and better manuvering would give it an edge. Disadvantage is that refurbished airframes are getting slightly old, and it's only marginally capable all-weather strike via the addition of a LANTIRN pod. Has a wide variety of precision ordinance available, except for laser-guided. On the plus side, it's also relatively cheap to purchase and maintain. This is also one of only two aircraft on the list capable of performing Supression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD) missions with some degree of success.

Grippen: Multi-role capablity, able to operate from almost any paved surface, but it gave up a lot of weight to get that, resulting in short range and low overall capablity. Not as good a dogfighter, and its missiles are rather lackluster compared to the other options (or even buying SU-27Ds/whatever the latest version of the MiG-29 is from the Russians). Like the F-16, the airframes are getting slightly old. It's not capable of all-weather strike. Weapons load is surprisingly large all things considered, but not as large as an F-16 or Rafale. Capable of using precision ordinance including laser-guided weapons, but not many of them.

Eurofighter Typhoon: Best BVR fighter of the bunch, with the longest-ranged missiles, and an excellent dogfighter (though not as good as the F-16 or Rafale). Not a multirole aircraft in any sense of the word, this is an air defence fighter, and while like any plane in the world it can carry iron bombs for ground attack, it's not going to be pleased with the mission and there are much better options. Absolutely no capablity to use precision ordinance for ground attack, and its weapons load in such a situation would be considered very small. Also very expensive.

Rafale: Available with a variety of options and in both two-seat and single-seat forms, the Rafale is as good a multirole aircraft as the F-16, has better range than even the Eurofighter (it descends from a carrier aircraft, so this is to be expected), and comparable missiles to the F-16. It dogfights well, probably being the runner-up after the built-for-the-dogfight F-16, and unlike the F-16 can be purchased with options allowing for true all-weather strike and laser-guided munitions. The Rafale is also capable of SEAD missions in a pinch, though its options in the antiradiation missile department are not as capable as the F-16's HARMs. It also has superior standoff attack options that are probably of no use to the Romanian Air Force, but you never know. Cheaper than the Eurofighter, but more costly than the other options.

Mirage 2000: The Armee'de la Air doesn't like these aircraft, and for good reason. They are available with an even greater variety of options then the Rafale, the problem is they're also very much constrained in their roles. Variants exist for air-to-air, daylight attack, all-weather attack, and (somewhat superfluously for Romania), nuclear ordinance delivery. All Mirage 2000s are capable of serving in a fighter role in a pinch, medium range, but mediocre weapons load compared to any of the others, even the Grippen, and their missiles were showing their age 10 years ago. Not capable of SEAD missions.

Just for fun, let's assess a few other possiblities:

MiG-29: Wide availablity, easy of maintaince, and in newer models quite capable, this is one of the few aircraft that would really hold it's own in a dogfight with an F-16 (partly because of the MiG's ability to launch missiles off-boresight). Designed as a multi-role aircraft and in some configurations all-weather capable, but the ordinance at its disposal are not as capable as the Western options and it can't perform SEAD missions like the F-16 or Rafale.

SU-27: Wide availablity, like the MiG-29, and high performance, this is an excellent air-defense aircraft. It is not truly multi-role capable but offers some options in that way, more than the Eurofighter, with some precision-guided munitions capablity and a large weapons load, but like the Typhoon it's just not going to be happy in the role. The ordinance, like the MiG-29, is slightly aged, but still reasonably competitive. Likely to be somewhat expensive, though.

Tornado: While like the Mirage 2000 it is constrained by its variant, but the air-defense version of the Tornado is a very good aircraft that would respond better to being used in a strike or CAS role then the Typhoon or SU-27. The ground-attack variant of the Tornado is probably still the best strike aircraft in the world, capable of performing any sort of mission except (unfortunately) close air support in superb fashion, with a wide variety of precision-guided munitions, and in a dogfight could give most interceptors a run for their money. It also has built-in SEAD capablity since it carries ALARM missiles for self-defense purposes (opposite the defensive Sidewinders), and could carry more if needed.


All in all, were it available, I would have said the Rafale, but since it's not, the F-16 will get you the most options and capablity for the money.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 02:55:55 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Pfft. SF Dragons all the way. Let's see ANY country try to shoot THOSE *****es down!
"I only miss what I don't hit."
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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
150m/s max afterburner velocity doesn't sound that speedy though. But it's probably way more agile than any of the jets mentioned above.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
NGTM-1R, you might want to check your information. I think there are several errors in there, or at least I think so.

Personally, I don't think MiG-29 or SU-27 (or its variants) are choices here. Tornado is quite old at the moment also.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
NGTM-1R, you might want to check your information. I think there are several errors in there, or at least I think so.

Well, that's your problem. It's about as reliable as I can make it from my sources, which are slightly closer to the planes in question then, say, wikipedia. :P

And yes, the Tornado is old, but I've yet to see an aircraft more capable in the strike role emerge; with the F-111s all in the boneyard, the Russian FN-32 is the only real competition for the title and it's not quite a match, despite being larger it lacks the Tornado's ability to fly as low and as fast or carry the variety of weapons the Tornado can.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 03:00:03 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Offline MarkN

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
About the Typhoon. It has just been cleared for RAF use in the ground attack role, although, interestingly it isn't set up for conventional 'iron' bombs, but can carry both Paveway (laser or GPS guided precision munition), Brimstone (variant of Hellfire Anti-tank missile modified for use on fast jets rather than helicopters), and most impressively, storm shadow, a small cruise missile, this is definitely the armament of a true multi-role aircraft, although it doesn't have the ground attack capability of an aircraft optimised for ground attack such as the Tornado or F15E, primarily because of it's small size, and an inability to carry HARMs.
On the subject of the Romainian airforce, due to their small size, their main role would be likely to be support of multimational forces and showing the flag, neither of which generally need the best (and most expensive aircraft). As such, the Saab or a Block 52 F-16, would probably be the best option.

 

Offline Mika

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Yeah, I was wondering about the air-to-ground capability of Typhoon myself. I also thought it was designed to be quite good in air-to-mud role also. Thanks for clearing it up. Another bit that strikes me as odd is that Gripen wouldn't have all weather strike capability. Supposing I knew something of the weather conditions in Sweden (or Scandinavia), this sounds highly suspicious. Also, I don't think the Gripen frame is yet showing its age.

Regarding weaponry, it will be interesting to see if Meteor will succeed in its original design goals of improving AMRAAM by a factor of three. The missile is tested with Gripen and Typhoon, but it is not in service yet. In a couple of years, the BVR capabilities of both of them could be improved radically, but this is of course only speculation at this point and might not have any effect on a nation that needs airplanes now.

The next thing to consider is compatibility or delocalization? Compatibility towards NATO systems from F-16's side, or delocalization in the form of short take-off and landing distance? There are more spares for F-16s around the world and it is definetely combat tested. For Gripen, the actual combat tests are waiting for it, but on the other hand the frame is probably designed to withstand more abuse than F-16s. Typhoons ace is that it has two engines, and given the mean time between failures in engine departments, it could be possible to calculate if the savings in the fuel are offset by the destruction of X number of single-engine aircraft, since it is not that likely that both of the Typhoons engines would fail at the same time.

Mika
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Offline admiral_wolf

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
I have a squadron of GTF Apollo craft capable of sub orbit travel going if Romania are interested.  I have no need for them since I have recieved GTF Ullyses and GTF Hercules fighters.  One problem is getting them to 21st century Earth.  Internet telecommunications is one thing, but I've not tried sending matter...
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Oki so the deal is this. The RoAirForce wants to buy 48 Multi-Role aicrafts.

They have to also be easy to maintain they have to operate on all weather conditions and take off from poor runways. Basicly they have to de everithing do it good and do it from poor runways and be serviceble really fast and cheap.

that would throw both the Typhoon and the F-16 out the window since they both cost and arm and a leg to maintain and operate.

The F-16 would be vulnerable from debries on the poor runways.

The Typhoon would be ideal if we could aford it.

That would in therory only leave the Raffale and the Grippen as real contenders.

Also the Idea of buying 70' tech and half of it refurbished did not go well with the gouverment and parliament not to mention the pilots.

To put it another way we are not that rich that we can afford to buy second hand.

Those planes will be retired from active service by the USAF in a matter of years. So that means we have to buy the junk others are throwing ??

The F-16 is my least favorite. They would be dated and would have to be replaced in a matter of years. Sure Lockhead said they will consider the option of us buying the JSF . But that thing costs even more the the Typhoon and its not even more capable then the Typhoon.

At this moment in time the Typhoon and the F22 are the most advanced planes in the world .

Whyle the Typhoon doesnt have as many weapons sistems as the F-16 new ones are beeing developed for the planes as we speak. Since its brand new.  It has super cruise and it can dog-fight at supersonic speeds.  It has more advanced radar sistems targeting everithing. And it is 2 engined.

On the other hand it cost and arm and a leg.

So what option are left?? Well the Raffale wold be a good choice as would the Grippen wich is about 20 years or more younger then the dated F-16 . Also a new variant based on the Grippen is being developed more powerfull etc. If romania would buy them they could service them here build and repair them since Saab would buy the a factory here to produce the planes etc.

And we would get acces to the new plane that is beeing developed by Saab.

Si in reality the choices are limited.

I mean to get an idea of the kind of environment the planes would have to endure: They would have to endure beeing parked outside with minimal protection from the weather .

They have to endure temperatures of -30 celsius on the runway and be readyu to start up by the flick of a switch.  as well as beeing kept in +40 celsius outside.

Oh did i mention the almost paved runways???

The F35 JSF is a capable aircraft for the US marines in ground support roles. but at the projected price tag of over 200 million dollars per plane as i read over on the net it is ridiculous. Im better off buyng russian planes and refitting them with NATO standards avionics. Its cheaper and would perform a lot btter.
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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Are you just speculating, or do you play some role in this purchase?
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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
I have a squadron of GTF Apollo craft capable of sub orbit travel going if Romania are interested.  I have no need for them since I have recieved GTF Ullyses and GTF Hercules fighters.  One problem is getting them to 21st century Earth.  Internet telecommunications is one thing, but I've not tried sending matter...

Remember the thing I said earlier about people relating EVERYTHING to Freespace to the point where it's not funny anymore? Yea, this is the sort of stupid crap I'm talking about. Get some freaking imagination.

And I'm not singling you out wolf, I'm just quoting you because you were the response in this line.


And I really doubt AlphaOne has any direct connection with the purchasing. Still, off the top of my head, the Grippen or F-16 would be the best choice. The Mirage is dated compared to both of them, in terms of design, weaponry, avionics, etc - the F-16 is still being updated and will probably be on the forefront of low-cost air forces for at least 5-10 more years. The Grippen is brand new off the assembly line, and although I don't know much about it, I would say this would be the best choice for Romania, because of it's ability to be operated from remote airstrips. Romania is not going on any conquests - it wants these fighters most likely for home defense, where the Grippen's short range (and the F-16's as well) won't really matter - and the ability to operate from so many different places would only benefit Romania in a self defense conflict.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: RoAirForce wants to buy 48 new fighter-planes.
Does anyone really have any data on the price of maintenance for any of these aircraft? I mean, the F-16 was designed with export in mind, and the Mirage is an older plane, so it may well cost more in straight up maintenance.