Author Topic: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq  (Read 7155 times)

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Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
     Barack Obama and John McCain both talk about Iraq in their issues and policies, but do either one of them give a damn? Do either one of their policies actually give any consideration for the Iraq people? Here's some stuff from their website:

Obama:
A phased withdrawal will encourage Iraqis to take the lead in securing their own country and making political compromises, while the responsible pace of redeployment called for by the Obama-Biden plan offers more than enough time for Iraqi leaders to get their own house in order. As our forces redeploy, Obama and Biden will make sure we engage representatives from all levels of Iraqi society—in and out of government—to forge compromises on oil revenue sharing, the equitable provision of services, federalism, the status of disputed territories, new elections, aid to displaced Iraqis, and the reform of Iraqi security forces.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/

John McCain:
John McCain believes that economic progress is essential to sustaining security gains in Iraq. Markets that were once silent and deserted have come back to life in many areas, but high unemployment rates continue to fuel criminal and insurgent violence. To move young men away from the attractions of well-funded extremists, we need a vibrant, growing Iraqi economy. The Iraqi government can jump-start this process by using a portion of its budget surplus to employ Iraqis in infrastructure projects and in restoring basic services.
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/fdeb03a7-30b0-4ece-8e34-4c7ea83f11d8.htm

      So what, Obama says "revenue sharing", McCain says "help the government jump start the economic, employ Iraqis in infrastructure projects", blah blah blah. But what's the real economic issue in Iraq?

      L. Paul Bremer's 100 Orders.
      Bremer issued 100 orders to "help" Iraq during the time of the interim government. Those orders became law, and hard to get rid of. Basically they were included in an early constitution, they became law, the last constitution doesn't specifically state them but it doesn't repeal them either so they're STILL law. And what you say is Bremer's 100 orders? Who gives a crap?

       In short, the corporate rape and takeover of Iraq.
       In greater length: http://www.uruknet.info/?p=42948
     
"Order No. 39 allows for: (1) privatization of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100% foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) "national treatment" — which means no preferences for local over foreign businesses; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licenses.

"Thus, it forbids Iraqis from receiving preference in the reconstruction while allowing foreign corporations — Halliburton and Bechtel, for example — to buy up Iraqi businesses, do all of the work and send all of their money home. They cannot be required to hire Iraqis or to reinvest their money in the Iraqi economy. They can take out their investments at any time and in any amount.

"Orders No. 57 and No. 77 ensure the implementation of the orders by placing U.S.-appointed auditors and inspector generals in every government ministry, with five-year terms and with sweeping authority over contracts, programs, employees and regulations.

"Order No. 17 grants foreign contractors, including private security firms, full immunity from Iraq's laws. Even if they, say, kill someone or cause an environmental disaster, the injured party cannot turn to the Iraqi legal system. Rather, the charges must be brought to U.S. courts.

"Order No. 40 allows foreign banks to purchase up to 50% of Iraqi banks.

"Order No. 49 drops the tax rate on corporations from a high of 40% to a flat 15%. The income tax rate is also capped at 15%.

"Order No. 12 (renewed on Feb. 24) suspends "all tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq." This led to an immediate and dramatic inflow of cheap foreign consumer products — devastating local producers and sellers who were thoroughly unprepared to meet the challenge of their mammoth global competitors."
http://www.orbstandard.com/News/Zeese/Zeese_Corporate_US_Takeover_of_the_Iraq_Economy.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Paul_Bremer


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      Barrack Obama and John McCain say they're for change? Changing what?
      "Help the Iraq people"
      "Withdraw our troops"
      Bull****.

      What about giving the the Iraqi country BACK to the Iraqis? And taking it away from the US Corporations. Iraq is a bonafide PUPPET state. That's the REAL issue with Iraq. So why in the hell isn't that being talked about? Because most like McCain and Obama like that situation, and they're not going to change it. Because they're not about Changing Iraq. The only change they'll bring is a new face to the corporate puppet in the Oval office.

      Btw.
      Bremer's orders are a violation of the Hague Conventions, ratified by the United States in 1907

"Under international law an occupying government has one set of responsibilities, and they're very clear. An occupying government must provide security and basic services. An occupying government explicitly cannot fundamentally rewrite the laws of the country they're occupying. The United States did exactly the opposite; we rewrote the laws, and we didn't provide basic services or security for the people."

http://www.stateofthepeople.org/news/BushClearsWayforCorporateDomination.html

       Thankyou US for breaking another International law. And thank you Obama and McCain for seemingly have no interest in trying to rectify that problem.


       How many people even know about the Bremer orders?




 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
I do. I also know that Bremer hasn't been in charge of Iraq for several years now.

You seem to want to get really agitated about a few paragraphs of information from the Internet. You can't translate these one-dimensional scraps into massive global problems.

Everything is more complex than it appears on the Internet.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am saying that this kind of rhetoric isn't really going to inform anyone, change anything, or draw attention to problems in a way that will help solve them.

 
Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
I do. I also know that Bremer hasn't been in charge of Iraq for several years now.

You seem to want to get really agitated about a few paragraphs of information from the Internet. You can't translate these one-dimensional scraps into massive global problems.

Everything is more complex than it appears on the Internet.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am saying that this kind of rhetoric isn't really going to inform anyone, change anything, or draw attention to problems in a way that will help solve them.

      Massive Global problems?
      What rhetoric exactly will change things? That of Obama and McCain? The fact that Bremer's not in charge is irrelevant. His legacy continues. How is Iraq as a country supposed to improve if all the profits from their local economy is sent overseas? How can a country improve when they likely don't have so little control? If Iraq doesn't improve, will the US withdraw troops? Or if the US has such an investment in Iraq, the US corporations that is, will the US withdraw troops?

       These are real important issues about Iraq. But the two presidential candidates don't even give them a mention. The media doesn't give them any mention. So do you REALLY think anything's going to change? In the other thread, you said "I believe Obama and McCain, that they'll change things" (paraphrased)

        So explain to me, how you think Obama and McCain are going to clean up Bush's Iraq legacy when they don't even address the single most important issue that's screwing over Iraq. No matter who's elected president. Four years from now, the US will still be in Iraq.


 

Offline achtung

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Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
FreeSpaceMods.net | FatHax | ??????
In the wise words of Charles de Gaulle, "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."

Formerly known as Swantz

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
Hardline rhetoric and unthinking belief -- the affective death spiral -- are the enemies of human progress. Go back and read what I said. I'm trying to get you to step back and think rationally. I'm not attacking your beliefs.

Quote
"I believe Obama and McCain, that they'll change things" (paraphrased)

No I didn't. I said I believe they wouldn't behave like Bush (i.e. launch preemptive wars, take illegal executive action to a ridiculous degree.) They won't be angels, but they'll be an improvement, I think.

Please be careful about misquoting and misattributing statements. It shows that you're not really reading and trying to understand everything.

 
Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
No I didn't. I said I believe they wouldn't behave like Bush (i.e. launch preemptive wars, take illegal executive action to a ridiculous degree.) They won't be angels, but they'll be an improvement, I think.

Please be careful about misquoting and misattributing statements. It shows that you're not really reading and trying to understand everything.

        Ah you are correct, my mistake and my apologies.
        So you believe, that they won't behave like Bush.

        Here's a question, do you believe that they'll effect positive change? Actually, positive change, as opposed to diminishing negative change. And if the answer is no, would you support either one of them with a vote (hypothetically, since, it is after a secret vote).       

  

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
No. The president has very little power to effect anything.

I support Obama because I believe he'll do the least damage, and because he's respected overseas, so he may help repair America's global reputation.

 
Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
I support Obama because I believe he'll do the least damage

     That's a great reason to vote for someone.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
Don't be foolish. It's possible to simultaneously do damage and do good. Bush has done many things right and many things wrong.

I believe Obama will do fewer things wrong than McCain, and simultaneously do more good.

I support Obama because I believe he'll do the least damage, and because he's respected overseas, so he may help repair America's global reputation.

If you are going to quote me, please quote in full instead of clipping to support your own point.

 
Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
I support Obama because I believe he'll do the least damage, and because he's respected overseas, so he may help repair America's global reputation.

If you are going to quote me, please quote in full instead of clipping to support your own point.

    Who cares about your reputation?
    Repair your country.
    Repair the lives of the Iraqis and give them back their country.
    Work towards true peace in Israel and Palestine.
   
     Do these and your countries reputation will take care of itself.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
International influence -- and the ability to accomplish foreign policy goals -- is bolstered by a strong reputation. Witness the recent hubbub in Georgia.

Since you have so much data to back up your statements, please tell 'us' (as if I somehow represent the whole diverse spectrum of US citizens) how to do the things you've requested.

If you cannot, please take a few days to research the issues in question, so that you may understand the full difficulty of these tasks.

Remember: tackling these issues as simple problems with clear solutions only makes them worse.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
    Who cares about your reputation? This makes the bottom three a lot easier with international cooperation aka having friends.
    Repair your country. K lemme get the owner's manual
    Repair the lives of the Iraqis and give them back their country. A little bit more difficult than that
    Work towards true peace in Israel and Palestine. HEY! YOU GUYS!! STOP BEING SO MEAN TO EACH OTHER!
   
     Do these and your countries reputation will take care of itself.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 
Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
International influence -- and the ability to accomplish foreign policy goals -- is bolstered by a strong reputation. Witness the recent hubbub in Georgia.

Since you have so much data to back up your statements, please tell 'us' (as if I somehow represent the whole diverse spectrum of US citizens) how to do the things you've requested.

If you cannot, please take a few days to research the issues in question, so that you may understand the full difficulty of these tasks.

Remember: tackling these issues as simple problems with clear solutions only makes them worse.

How to do it?

Israel/Palestine - QUIT TAKING SIDES.

Iraq - Get out of the damn country and leave them alone

Your own country - quit buying guns, tanks, and missiles and try spending a LITTLE bit more money on education, infrastructure, clean drinking water, healthcare . . . oh wait, not healthcare, you already spend more than anyone else in the world, despite the fact people have to pay for it themselve and despite the fact many people die because they don't have healthcare. So try, changing your healthcare system, so it's actual a system for people rather than a system for private corporations to make money.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
How to do it?

Israel/Palestine - QUIT TAKING SIDES. Again, a little more complicated than that.  Do you actually have some plan to handle the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza/West Bank/Golan, to disarm the Palestinian militants in Fatah and Hamas, or to engage the Arab world in talks with Palestine and Israel?  Or just some broad generalization that says you know nothing more about this topic than the average dumbass sheep anti-war protestor?

Iraq - Get out of the damn country and leave them alone K, we'll just drop everything and get out.  Sound good?  We can just leave the Iraqi infrastructure and security where it's at?

Please do some research on foreign policy before making these claims.  You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Rian

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Re: Why Obama and McCain don't give a **** about Iraq
Many wars and atrocities in history have resulted from sudden power vacuums. Consider, for example, the massive instability in post-colonial Africa.

Whether or not US support of Israel is justified, whether or not the US was wise to take action in Iraq, sudden withdrawal of that influence would create instabilities that would likely result in greater tragedy. If the US stopped supporting Israel, Israel’s opponents might see that as an invitation to attack. Alternatively, an insecure Israel might feel the need to preemptively attack its neighbors. If the US abruptly withdrew from Iraq, the young government might collapse and leave the country vulnerable to another oppressive regime.

Don’t get me wrong: I believe that it would be to America’s benefit to extricate itself from both situations. But there are many, many complications to consider, and only a thoroughly reasoned solution is likely to succeed. It’s never as simple as it appears.

 

Offline Hellstryker

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Re: Why Obama an' McCain dern't give a yo ho about Iraq
Well, I don't really have much to say about this aside from the fact that it should be blatantly obvious were here to stay in iraq >_<. Also, i've just gained ALOT of respect for Battuta  :nod:

 
Re: Why Obama an' McCain dern't give a **** about Iraq
How t' do it?

Israel/Palestine - QUIT TAKING SIDES.  Again, a little more complicated than wot.  Do ye actually have some plan t' handle th' withdrawal o' Israeli forces from Gaza/West Bank/Golan, t' disarm th' Palestinian militants in Fatah an' Hamas, or t' engage th' Arab world in talks with Palestine an' Israel?  Or just some broad generalization wot says ye know nothin' more about this 'ere topic than th' average dumbass sheep anti-war protestor?

Iraq - Get out o' th' damn country an' leave them alone K, we'll just drop everythin' an' get out.  Sound good?  We can just leave th' Iraqi infrastructure an' security where it's at?

Please do some research on foreign policy afore makin' these claims.  Ye clearly have nay idea what ye're talkin' about.

          So your answer is:
          "It's too hard, let's not do anything at all"

          And America rejoiced. Congratulations. You've become a proponent for the status quo instead of positive changed. Haliburton and the US Military Industrial complex would be proud.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Why Obama an' McCain dern't give a yo ho about Iraq
I've said everything I want to by now. I respect what you're trying to say, and while I'm sure some would think you're damaging your own credibility by now, I recognize the point of view behind your statements.

You can keep making simple, proscriptive suggestions about how to fix extremely complex issues. Most US citizens I know have passed through the phase you're going through at one point (why don't we just do these common-sense things!) Then they realize that the world doesn't work that way.

If you're going to complain about health care, perhaps you should be aware that both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama put health care reform at the top of their agendas. Clinton, in particular, had an incredibly comprehensive plan for health care reform.

Calm down, step back, and take a good long think about these things.  I also suggest checking out Overcoming Bias for some awesome discussions of why complex thought and attempted objectivity are valuable.

Also, Talk like a Pirate Day is awesome.

 

Offline Rian

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Re: Why Obama an' McCain dern't give a yo ho about Iraq
No one has said that we shouldn’t do anything. We’ve said that these are complex issues that should be handled with care, and that thinking they’re simple is dangerous and counterproductive.

After all, “let’s invade Iraq and fix things” sounded like one of those nice, simple answers back in the day. Look what a mess that turned out to be.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Why Obama an' McCain dern't give a yo ho about Iraq
Well, I don't really have much t' say about this 'ere aside from th' fact wot it should be blatantly obvious were here t' stay in iraq >_<.  Also, i've just gained ALOT o' respect fer Battuta  :nod:

Thank you!