Author Topic: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?  (Read 7459 times)

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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
I was thinking of a fleet like this:

1 flagship
1 to 2 destroyers
3 or 4 corvettes
3 to 5 cruisers
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
People can keep drawing TOEs as much as they like but in reality those were only 'true' in peacetime and even then it is doubtful they would have used such direct 'by fours' (or threes) method like commonly used in infantry. Fleets were/are (also historically) most often location bound regardless of their designations (like US 3rd Fleet ~ US East Pacific Fleet, US 4th Fleet ~ US South Atlantic Fleet etc etc). And their actual strengths were/are not in any way equal. Basically the amount of ships in a fleet varies greatly both due losses and also due reassignments of ships from one fleet to another.

In short.. There is no way to tell how many ships are part of a fleet. Reserve fleet in peacuful area is more of organizational entity than anything else.. perhaps consisting only of couple of cruisers and whole lot of support ships while stocked front line fleets just before the shooting war could have several destroyers and several dozens of cruisers.

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
Well i just wanted to establish a standard for fans. Authors and my little bro :)
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
"With 75 percent of our forces in this system decimated"

Which means that 6th Fleet can only be confirmed to have been the unit on the blockade if anything. It does NOT say 6th Fleet took 75% losses. It says the forces in the system did. This almost certainly means 6th Fleet is not alone.

Could also mean that much of 6th fleet is deployed elsewhere though and they are referring to 75% of whatever was left.
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
Colonel, it's a bit difficult to establish a standard fleet size. I don't think the Colossus usually operates with a fleet of ships escorting it.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
Actually they do refer to the Colossus having a battlegroup.
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
The Colossus has a battlegroup, but in all in-game appearances, it's always by itself.
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Quote: Wednesday, 6 November 2019, 1845hrs UTC, #gaming
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
Although you definitely have valid points in the rest of your statements, I doubt very much this particular statement is what :v: intended.

Truth be told, neither do I, but until I learn to read the minds at :v: or hear otherwise from them I can't really rule it out.

My own take on it is that the GTVA operates "mobile" fleets lead by a single frontline destroyer. The destroyer is backed up by a number of cruiser-corvette striking forces (three or four) each lead by a corvette or two and having two to four cruisers (sometimes more). Vasudans do things their own way and their battlegroups are lead by a single frontline destroyer which counts one to three corvettes and three to seven cruisers in escorts. These reflect the peacetime TO&E. Wartime obviously can cause these numbers to change as they lose ships or are reinforced.

Older destroyers, and many other ships, are assigned to the "fixed" defense forces of individual systems where they and the other ships so assigned operate more or less independently, because that is a more efficent arrangement for their usual job of guarding widely dispersed civilian assets and traffic. In time of war, they can be called on and moved up to the front lines where they are seconded to an existing fleet structure on an as-needed basis. In this way a fleet in a combat zone may have multiple destroyers in its command structure, but usually they try to add on more of the striking force units rather than overstrength the ones they have. The Vasudans don't even bother. They just let the battlegroup get as big as needs to be, since it's intended to be more or less a blunt instrument while Terran fleet organization is designed for tactical and grand tactical flexiblity.

(It's based on my idea of a sort of lessons learned from the T-V War; Terran fleets had most success with a blunt force trauma approach since they tended to have superior ships and weapons, so a straight-up confrontation worked well for them. The Vasudans usually had to do things the opposite way to be successful, though blunt force came through for them at a couple of key points with the Typhon. Rather then construct their post-Great War fleet units to do what they already knew how to do, both chose to construct them to do what they had not done well in the T-V War, to put armor over their weaknesses rather than build on strengths that didn't serve them very well against the Shivans. The hope is that a more balanced approach will result in fewer casualities at least.)
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
Actualy the GTVA has very decent ships to combat the shivans.

The Vasudans lead the way with more durable ships and more powerfull weapons (Hattie vs Hecate)

however the major downfall for the GTVA is atempting to fight the shivans on their own terms. that is with massive concentration of firepower against a single target which has proven to be less then succesfull duw to the fact that shivan warships cat take out ANY GTVA counterpart in less then 2 shots (Colossus is the exception here) .


Howeve back to the question at hand.

GTVA fleets are not that small as people may imagine them to be. However due to the HUGE amount of space they have to protect pattrol and supervise you almost NEVER get to see 2 GTVA destroyers and their escort in one place.


As we have seen in the main FS1 and most notably the FS2 campaign a typical GTVA fleet has :

1 Destroyer (minimum , this figure is probably most common in the backwater remote regions of the GTVA)

2-3 Cv-s per destroyer (standard complement i would assume)

1-2 Cr per Cv (this is the case because the GTVA has not yet replaced ALL of its cruiser with corvettes as is states in the tech room. )

However this is the bare minimum i would assume for a GTVA fleet .

For Fleet such as Aquitane's fleet i would assume you would have :

2-4 Destroyers per fleet
2 -3 Cv's per destroyer with at least double the number of cruisers .


However people must not be fooled that there is  a maximum and a minimum of ships in a fleet. You could easely see up to 10 destroyers per fleet if the situation calls for a massive presence in the sistem.

or as low as 4 corvettes with 8 to 10 cruisers as part of the fleet.


also i would assume there are about equal numbers of terran fleets as there are vasudan battlegroups.

Also the number 13 is not the maximum number of fleets by a long shot.

You could easaly have at least 10 more fleets in reserve . sure they probably wont be as strong as the front line ones but they will be powerfull nevertheless.

so my take is there are at least :

26 fleets/battlegroups

Each fleet has an average of 2 destroyers per fleet.

Also as backup i would imagine they have at least half as many fleets (10 to 13 ) in reserve guarding the GTVA when the front line fleets are out gooing to war in another sistem or they culd act as reinforcements casualty replacements.


So the GTVA has quite a whoping number of warships.

However the drawback is the fact that the nwer warships fail to live up to the standards set by the old generation. The Hecate is one example. While is excels at aaaf protection and force projection when compared to the much much much more older Orion class when push comes to showe they have no real bite to them. And a destroyers fighter/bommber complement can be depleted really fast these days.

The exception from the rule is of course the Hattie with the Deimos coming in a close second alongside the Sobek. Both of them achieve what they are suposed to do in a very admirable fashion. And the Hattie while it may not be as heavely armed as its older counterpart form the GTA the Orion is still more powerfull then the Hecate by a large margin more durable and fields the same amount of fightercraft as the Hecate class.


So yeah the Zods got it right with their Cv's and D's and managed to frack thingsup with theyr cruisers .

The terrans got it good with the Aeoulous and the Deimos with the Leviathan coming in right behind thatx to its 4 AAAF beams.

 
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
The Hatshepsut's only dangerous to warships if they approach from above. If they approach from below, the Hatshepsut's in trouble.

The Hecate has a serious problem that should only exist on Shivan warships.
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Quote: Wednesday, 6 November 2019, 1845hrs UTC, #gaming
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
The Hatshepsut's only dangerous to warships if they approach from above. If they approach from below, the Hatshepsut's in trouble.

The Hecate has a serious problem that should only exist on Shivan warships.


Agreed to the below thing of the Hattie but then again most GTVA warships dont have even adequate firepower to cover they underside. But a valid point nevertheless.

As for the Hecate well it field just on BG in its forward firing ark.  So the Hecate is desperately in need of some big guns upgrades.

The hecate is al all-round almost adequate warships but manages the incredible to be taken out by a corvette or a cruiser if attacked from the sides below or the rear.

so IMO the really fracked up that ships. they wanted to be able to do everithing with it and ended up dooing less then they anticipated and were forced to fall back to the good old trusti powerfull as hell Orion with less then adequate aaaf capabilaties.
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
To make it simple :

78-100+ Destroyers TOTAL
160-200+ Corevettes TOTAL
300-500+ Cruisers TOTAL

Considering the staggering losses suffered during the NTF rebellion and the Second shivan war i would estimate the GRAND TOTAL to drop by about 30-40% . I'm basing this on the fact that the player is not informed of everithing that happenes during the war. So he does not know all the losses.

I expect not even ship captains know the grand total in losses as it would be a huge blow to moralle and may cause riots and all sorts of problems.

Also this is based on what we do get from the debriefings and briefings.

30-40% losses is a HUGE blow if you stop to think about it. However that does not mean the GTVA has lost ALL of its fighting force. It just means that what remains of the GTVA armada is now even more stretched towards covering all the ground GTVA controlls.

If the GTVA had comitted even more during the war towards fighting the shivans with losses exceding 50% gooing towrds 60 or more then that would of been disatrous and would of efectively meant the destruction of the GTVA fighting capabilaties .

basicly they would not of had enough replacements or even warships to mount an effective campaign.

It would of meant having massive holes in the front lines and calling up ships from guard duties all over the GTVA leaving them without protection should anithing get through the front lines.

Considering how easy the GTVA looses destroyers cruisers and corvettes dont even tip the scale .
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
Pretty valid points, I think. All the evidence that the GTVA is short on ships is shown in Exodus, Their Finest Hour and Clash of the Titans II.
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Quote: Wednesday, 6 November 2019, 1845hrs UTC, #gaming
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Offline ShadowGorrath

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
AlphaOne, I know what you've been through in the Second Shivan Incursion, and that you got your analytical skills from there, and since you don't talk in missions, you have a lot to say, but do your posts really have to be larger than the page is?

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
Uh, Shadow, his post isn't very long, you know...
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Quote: Wednesday, 6 November 2019, 1845hrs UTC, #gaming
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
As for my analitical skill's they have nothing to do with FS2 main or any other user made mod.

I'm just making educated guesses based on what was provided to us in game.

Based on those informations (and im sure most of the people here would agree) one can draw up a pretty good picture regarding GTVA ship strenght losses and various effects it has overall.

If you desire any more proof i will divert your attention to say a 100k strong army loosing 40k of its veteran soldiers. While it may not look so bad in fact it is a disaster since that army's fighting potential has been reduced in half if not even lower depending on the detailed losses. Sure you may have replacement of up to 500k troops but those are all green out of the training camp or even worse reservists called up to action not even fresh out of the training facilaties.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
I believe it was a joke about your username

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
Sorry im off my game today. I REALLY need some more coffee and women. .....damn what a shame im at work.

Anyway anyone else care to speculate make an educated guess on the overall size of the GTVA ship's inventory?

I would really like to see what others have to say.
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
I can only guess so many:

100 GTF Ares
4000 GTF Hercules Mark II
1500 GTF Hercules
2 000 000+ GTM-4 Hornets
100 000 GTM-4a Tornados
100 GTM-13 Helios
500 000 GTW Subach HL-7
500 000 GTW Mekhu HL-7

:nervous:
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Quote: Wednesday, 6 November 2019, 1845hrs UTC, #gaming
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Offline Frosty

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Re: Unified answer,Fleet numbers, how's it all laid out?
alphaone that is way too many ships and personnel for the GTVA to even remotely have.

As far as I can tell there is probably 1-3 destroyers per fleet, then 2-5 cruisers, 4-8 corvettes with there being maybe 10-16 fleets in all (not counting the Vasudan battlegroups).  I came up with these numbers by looking at the ntf fleet losses and the amount of resources that the gtva used to combat them.

 The NTF is all but destroyed with the deployment of the colossus, but before that it seems that the deployment of the Psamtik and the Aquitaine had already turned the tide of the war.  If the GTVA had those kind of numbers at its disposal it would anialated the NTF long before the colossus even came around. 

Those numbers are even smaller in FS 1.  I would guess that during the great war there were only about 12-18 Orions in service and each one had its own accompanying fleet of cruisers.