Author Topic: BP Debate (split thread)  (Read 5828 times)

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Offline Romanmolf

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Mobius and Snail are more alike than they think
That's idiotic. :rolleyes:

But they MOD well together, that's a fact.

 

Offline Jeff Vader

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Guys, srsly...
23:40 < achillion > EveningTea: ass
23:40 < achillion > wait no
23:40 < achillion > evilbagel: ass
23:40 < EveningTea > ?
23:40 < achillion > 2-letter tab complete failure

14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
14:08 < achillion > Let's talk about politics instead
14:08 <@The_E > butts and dongs are part of #hard-light's brand now
14:08 <@The_E > well
14:08 <@The_E > EvilBagel's brand, at least

01:06 < T-Rog > welp
01:07 < T-Rog > I've got to take some very strong antibiotics
01:07 < achillion > penis infection?
01:08 < T-Rog > Chlamydia
01:08 < achillion > O.o
01:09 < achillion > well
01:09 < achillion > I guess that happens
01:09 < T-Rog > at least it's curable
01:09 < achillion > yeah
01:10 < T-Rog > I take it you weren't actually expecting it to be a penis infection
01:10 < achillion > I was not

14:04 < achillion > Sometimes the way to simplify is to just have a habit and not think about it too much
14:05 < achillion > until stuff explodes
14:05 < achillion > then you start thinking about it

22:16 < T-Rog > I don't know how my gf would feel about Jewish conspiracy porn

15:41 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
15:47 < EvilBagel> butt
15:51 < Achillion> yes
15:53 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

18:53 < Achillion> Dicks are fun

21:41 < MatthTheGeek> you can't spell assassin without two asses

20:05 < sigtau> i'm mining titcoins from now on

00:31 < oldlaptop> Drunken antisocial educated freezing hicks with good Internet == Finland stereotype

11:46 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
11:50 < achtung> Surely you've heard of DVDA
11:50 < achtung> Double Vaginal Double ANal
11:51 < Kobrar> ...
11:51 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has left #hard-light []

 

Offline General Battuta

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Yeah, let's move on.

 

Offline Mobius

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Well, the node moving of its own accord for no reason makes much less sense than the node moving after a 50+ year hiatus.

Why "after" and not "during"? This part of the discussion is based on nothing, not even fanon. In BP the GTVA fleet arrives in Sol and some Aurora fighters need to make the jump to Earth as if everyone already knows that the node isn't where it was supposed to be. There's no explanation. INFA has one and I hope you're not going to bring it to this discussion.

I'm pretty sure Darius wouldn't be stupid enough to have 3 Orions dying in the first mission, because he is not a n00b.

And despite telling a story, BP is a game, not a movie. It's a fighter-centric game too, not a space RTS. So it would make sense that the most important events occur when the player (a fighter/bomber) is on the battlefield. If the most important events happen when the player is doing nothing then there's obviously something wrong there. Remember that BP focuses intensely on story but also has to include good gameplay and balance. Therefore, it's much better to experience the events and fight through them than simply hearing about them (What would be better, seeing the Galatea's destruction or just being told about it?).

Things need to be plausible in a well designed plotline and frankly an Overpresent player who eyewitnesses the most important events even when he shouldn't can be boring. Maybe people play and don't pay attention on this - but I'd suggest you all to wonder if important things really need to happen when the player is there. There are messages, command briefings, briefings and now even cutscenes. As long as the player is in his cockpit things go well and the faction he fights for pwns... do you think it's plausible? I want more defeats because they're normal and, more importantly, human. As you know I'm working on NTV - do you think an overpwnage of GTVA forces and a "perfect" war with no major NTF losses is plausible? I don't think so.

For example, there could be a command briefing and then a small chapter at the end in which the pilot admits he has had second thoughts about the events of the previous mission, in which he killed thousands of people on board a destroyer or some such. Sure there's a difference between a war and an attempt to get home, but there is still massive room for character development. Character development of a different dimension but character development none the less.

Exactly, but you have to admit that it can't have the same intensity. There may be second thoughts, correct, but what about them?

"I killed 2,000 people today [...]"

"I killed 13,000 people today [...]"

"I killed 600 civilians today [...]"

...you can't pretend all these kind of comments to work, at least not always.


What the hell does that have to do with cheese? :wtf:

"I like cheese" was your reply to a comment of mine you have completely ignored. You do have poor gaming experience and although FS is a wonderful series you need to more experience to learn how to deal with stuff like inconsistencies - your way to interpret them is, in fact, uncommon and weird.

Snail always wins because he doesn't take things too seriously.

That is questionable since discussions end with a Mod lock or a loss of interest.

Two Deimos corvettes -- outdated and awful -- are destroyed by a top-of-the-line UEF destroyer. Following which we see a Titan destroyer, a modern GTVA ship, closing in on the UEF destroyer. There is no overpwnage whatsoever.

It has been established by Darius that UEF ships are inferior to their GTVA counterparts in direct fights.

Furthermore, did you miss the part at the end of Blue Planet where most of the GTVA expeditionary force defected to Sol?

Today: two corvettes. Tomorrow: one destroyer. The day after tomorrow: another destroyer and several cruisers...it's cool but it's very hard to find it serious... :rolleyes:

No, I didn't miss that part. I don't see the point, anyway - they're not going to make the difference in terms of firepower. They can be used effectively, though.
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Offline Darius

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Re: BP: War in Heaven feedback
Ok, time to excise from the AoA feedback thread.

The jump node isn't located near Earth, since it's nowhere stated that jump points orbit around a star at a certain speed, location or direction. Also, the only place where I've seen the node near Earth was the FS1 end cinematic which struck me more as artistic effect than something to be taken as true canon.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
Why "after" and not "during"? This part of the discussion is based on nothing, not even fanon. In BP the GTVA fleet arrives in Sol and some Aurora fighters need to make the jump to Earth as if everyone already knows that the node isn't where it was supposed to be. There's no explanation. INFA has one and I hope you're not going to bring it to this discussion.
So there's supposed to be some mystic force that moves Jump Nodes around for no damn reason, as you stated in INFA? I don't understand this bit.

What makes more sense:

1) After 50 years of being unstable, an artificial node is created, and the Jump Node location moves from near Earth to somewhere else in the solar system.

2) The Node moves, within a few hours/minutes or so, from Earth to somewhere near Saturn. And I see no explanation, except for the fact that DySko thought "it'd be cool!".

Things need to be plausible in a well designed plotline and frankly an Overpresent player who eyewitnesses the most important events even when he shouldn't can be boring. Maybe people play and don't pay attention on this - but I'd suggest you all to wonder if important things really need to happen when the player is there. There are messages, command briefings, briefings and now even cutscenes. As long as the player is in his cockpit things go well and the faction he fights for pwns... do you think it's plausible? I want more defeats because they're normal and, more importantly, human. As you know I'm working on NTV - do you think an overpwnage of GTVA forces and a "perfect" war with no major NTF losses is plausible? I don't think so.
So... You're saying most events should happen without the player witnessing them, for the sake of realism?

I ask you this. What is more important to Blue Planet - Storytelling, or realism?

Exactly, but you have to admit that it can't have the same intensity. There may be second thoughts, correct, but what about them?

"I killed 2,000 people today [...]"

"I killed 13,000 people today [...]"

"I killed 600 civilians today [...]"

...you can't pretend all these kind of comments to work, at least not always.
Do you really think he'd write the same comment over and over like that?

It seems to me you're assuming that BP will do everything badly.

"I like cheese" was your reply to a comment of mine you have completely ignored. You do have poor gaming experience and although FS is a wonderful series you need to more experience to learn how to deal with stuff like inconsistencies - your way to interpret them is, in fact, uncommon and weird.
I fail to see how this is related, in any way, shape or form, to cheese, which is the subject I brought up.

The fact that you are criticizing something that has nothing to do with the subject (the subject being, of course, cheese) shows you have an incoherent train of thought.

Today: two corvettes. Tomorrow: one destroyer. The day after tomorrow: another destroyer and several cruisers...it's cool but it's very hard to find it serious... :rolleyes:

So you're saying that little or no GTVA ships are allowed to be destroyed for storyline related reasons?

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
The jump node isn't located near Earth, since it's nowhere stated that jump points orbit around a star at a certain speed, location or direction. Also, the only place where I've seen the node near Earth was the FS1 end cinematic which struck me more as artistic effect than something to be taken as true canon.

That's exactly what I thought but, nevertheless, it's canon to have the node near Earth. As you said, however, there's no canon evidence(as far as we know) stating that nodes are affected by gravity and move alongside planets.

So there's supposed to be some mystic force that moves Jump Nodes around for no damn reason, as you stated in INFA? I don't understand this bit.

What makes more sense:

1) After 50 years of being unstable, an artificial node is created, and the Jump Node location moves from near Earth to somewhere else in the solar system.

2) The Node moves, within a few hours/minutes or so, from Earth to somewhere near Saturn. And I see no explanation, except for the fact that DySko thought "it'd be cool!".

There's no "mystic" force...

1) I'm a bit confused...the BP node that connects Delta Serpentis with Sol was created? It wasn't the same node the Lucifer led to collapse with its destruction?

2) The only possible explanation is that the node. That would be strange in terms of canon - if nodes move bloackade ships should move as well, and this doesn't happen.


So... You're saying most events should happen without the player witnessing them, for the sake of realism?

I ask you this. What is more important to Blue Planet - Storytelling, or realism?

No, not most events, but many of them. At least in a war, where the player can't be Overpresent. When a player and/or his ship is/are alone it's quite obvious that he/they eyewitness important events, everything is set about him/them.

You said storytelling - isn't that possible with messages and descriptions?


I fail to see how this is related, in any way, shape or form, to cheese, which is the subject I brought up.

The fact that you are criticizing something that has nothing to do with the subject (the subject being, of course, cheese) shows you have an incoherent train of thought.

You're doing it again - you're basically avoiding to answer me. There's no incoherence, you were the one who changed subject in the first place and you're still doing it.

So you're saying that little or no GTVA ships are allowed to be destroyed for storyline related reasons?

Surely not by the player and in rapid succession...would you like a campaign that resembles "King's Gambit", "The Sicilian Defense" and "Endgame"? There should be more like dogfights, recon missions(if possible), capture operations, depot raids and so on. There are many possibilities, "pure battle" isn't the only one.

Little or no isn't correct - it should be "not so many" or, at least, not in an easy way.
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Offline Spicious

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
That's exactly what I thought but, nevertheless, it's canon to have the node near Earth. As you said, however, there's no canon evidence(as far as we know) stating that nodes are affected by gravity and move alongside planets.
Stars tend to move. If nodes weren't affected by gravity, they'd get lost pretty quickly. Of course, there's no such thing as still in space anyway.

Quote
Surely not by the player and in rapid succession...would you like a campaign that resembles "King's Gambit", "The Sicilian Defense" and "Endgame"? There should be more like dogfights, recon missions(if possible), capture operations, depot raids and so on. There are many possibilities, "pure battle" isn't the only one.

Little or no isn't correct - it should be "not so many" or, at least, not in an easy way.
And you judge the frequency of those missions in an unreleased campaign how?

 

Offline Snail

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
There's no "mystic" force...

1) I'm a bit confused...the BP node that connects Delta Serpentis with Sol was created? It wasn't the same node the Lucifer led to collapse with its destruction?

2) The only possible explanation is that the node. That would be strange in terms of canon - if nodes move bloackade ships should move as well, and this doesn't happen.


1) Yes, it's the same node. But in 50 years, it could move, and, as blowfish said, the planets revolve around the sun. Nodes may not necessarily follow them around.

2) "The only possible explanation is the node..." The node what? What would be strange in canon? It appears something was omitted from your post.

No, not most events, but many of them. At least in a war, where the player can't be Overpresent. When a player and/or his ship is/are alone it's quite obvious that he/they eyewitness important events, everything is set about him/them.

You said storytelling - isn't that possible with messages and descriptions?

Classic storytelling rule - Show, don't tell.

Just telling the player stuff without letting him experience it would deduct from the enjoyment of playing the campaign. If you didn't get the point, this is a 'bad' thing.

For example, would you rather just read the storyline of WiH, or would you like to play through it? Same principal.

You're doing it again - you're basically avoiding to answer me. There's no incoherence, you were the one who changed subject in the first place and you're still doing it.
Blue is just how the human brain interprets a certain wavelength of visible light... As such, if all humans die out, does the color blue also cease to exist? If no one hears a tree falling, does it still make a noise? If you go back in time and kill your grandfather, what happens? Why is there more matter than anti-matter in the universe? Is the moon made out of cheese or is there a massive NASA cover up?

Surely not by the player and in rapid succession...would you like a campaign that resembles "King's Gambit", "The Sicilian Defense" and "Endgame"? There should be more like dogfights, recon missions(if possible), capture operations, depot raids and so on. There are many possibilities, "pure battle" isn't the only one.
Is there something wrong with those missions, then? They were fine from my point of view. Besides I doubt all missions would be like that and there's sure to be some kind of twist in the story sooner or later in the campaign. For example, what was the actual reason behind "Forced Ejection", the trailer mission? If the UEF is on the defensive why would it want to get out of its home system? Perhaps they're trying to get in contact with the Vishnans or some such. You can't criticize what you can't see.




Mobius, remember that this is a game. This is supposed to have good gameplay and such, so large battles are necessary; how fun would a game be if no ships were destroyed? And it's supposed to tell a good story, how good would the story be if the player doesn't witness the events?

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
This is nucking futs...

 

Offline Snail

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
This is nucking futs...
Better than those Creationism vs. Evolution debates any day of the week.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
But every bit as pointless ;) It's not like either side is going to change their minds.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
1) That's fine but the point is if their movements are influenced by stars, only, or if they have something to do with planets.

2) I post my hopes...

Please note that despite the misunderstandings mine is meant as a constructive criticism - I agree in claiming that BP is one of the best campaigns ever, that's why I'd like the second release to maintain a very high quality standard. :)


1) Yes, it's the same node. But in 50 years, it could move, and, as blowfish said, the planets revolve around the sun. Nodes may not necessarily follow them around.

That's what I said above - we don't know if planets influence their movements. Stars should because they revolve around the center of the galaxy.

Classic storytelling rule - Show, don't tell.

Just telling the player stuff without letting him experience it would deduct from the enjoyment of playing the campaign. If you didn't get the point, this is a 'bad' thing.

For example, would you rather just read the storyline of WiH, or would you like to play through it? Same principal.

I fail to understand why you don't consider cutscenes and temporary player changes. Player means two separate things, the character (1) and the FreeSpace fan (2). (2) can still experience certain events by using another character, not necessarily (1). Missions in which (2) plays the role of the GTVA pilot aren't forbidden, Snail. They'd show many, interesting aspects of the storyline.

Blue is just how the human brain interprets a certain wavelength of visible light... As such, if all humans die out, does the color blue also cease to exist? If no one hears a tree falling, does it still make a noise? If you go back in time and kill your grandfather, what happens? Why is there more matter than anti-matter in the universe? Is the moon made out of cheese or is there a massive NASA cover up?

:wtf:

Is there something wrong with those missions, then? They were fine from my point of view. Besides I doubt all missions would be like that and there's sure to be some kind of twist in the story sooner or later in the campaign. For example, what was the actual reason behind "Forced Ejection", the trailer mission? If the UEF is on the defensive why would it want to get out of its home system? Perhaps they're trying to get in contact with the Vishnans or some such. You can't criticize what you can't see.

In fact I do really have great hopes for possible twists. All I said is that BP should keep its standard of very high quality by managing the GTVA-UEF war in a plausible way. You got my comments in a wrong way and though I sort of hate BP2 even before the release for an apparently unknown reason  :wtf:

Mobius, remember that this is a game. This is supposed to have good gameplay and such, so large battles are necessary; how fun would a game be if no ships were destroyed? And it's supposed to tell a good story, how good would the story be if the player doesn't witness the events?

Another thing: you don't tolerate moderation. I said no overpwnages, it doesn't mean "no destructions at all". That would be strange and unplausible.

As I posted above it's player (2) who should eyewitness most if not all events, not necessarily player (1)...  :)
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Offline Snail

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
That's what I said above - we don't know if planets influence their movements. Stars should because they revolve around the center of the galaxy.

There is evidence that Jump Nodes don't move a large distance in a short amount of time. At least 3 jump nodes reside in Asteroid Fields (Antares - Beta Cygni Jump Node, Paving the Way; Epsilon Pegasi - Capella Jump Node, Into the Maelstrom; Regulus - Polaris, Rebels and Renegades). If these Jump Nodes moved around it would be assumed that there would be 'seasons' or time zones during which the Jump Node was located outside of an asteroid field. Which would be pretty strange if you ask me...

I fail to understand why you don't consider cutscenes and temporary player changes. Player means two separate things, the character (1) and the FreeSpace fan (2). (2) can still experience certain events by using another character, not necessarily (1). Missions in which (2) plays the role of the GTVA pilot aren't forbidden, Snail. They'd show many, interesting aspects of the storyline.
That's a pretty good idea actually, and would fit with BP's sort of storytelling style.

Kind of shows that I didn't actually read what you were writing. :blah:

:wtf:
'Cos this is Thriller, Thriller Night, and I can thrill you more than any ghoul could ever daaaare tryyyy...

In fact I do really have great hopes for possible twists. All I said is that BP should keep its standard of very high quality by managing the GTVA-UEF war in a plausible way. You got my comments in a wrong way and though I sort of hate BP2 even before the release for an apparently unknown reason  :wtf:
I found some of your comments either unfounded, founded on the basis of blatantly false assumptions or else easily refutable.

Another thing: you don't tolerate moderation. I said no overpwnages, it doesn't mean "no destructions at all". That would be strange and unplausible.
I'm going out to the hyper-bowl.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
Mobius, you're being incoherent and immature. Furthermore, you're imagining criticisms of a campaign that hasn't been released yet -- and, in the process, convincing yourself that these problems will occur. I imagine when it comes out you'll say 'see, told you so!' no matter what the campaign is like.

Darius, please, ignore him and just keep doing what you're doing. Blue Planet has been great because of the lack of drama surrounding it, so let's try to keep it that way.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
Mobius, you're being incoherent and immature.
Are you sure you're not getting me confused with him?

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: BP Debate (split thread)
Allow me to paraphrase.